Playing small pairs in late position

Situation:

You're (17/10/3) on the button with 5 5
SB (22/10/1) and BB (19/8/1) are both capable players
Action is folded to you.

Stacks:
You (100bb)
SB (85bb)
BB (50bb)

What's your move and why?

Raise as it's a standard steal/value raise. In other words it'll make money long-term.

Stack sizes don't matter too much until they get around the 20bb mark as it's the perfect restealing size as well as the perfect size to get committed postflop with any piece of the flop. So if I'm seeing <20bb stacks in the blinds in the same spot I'm often open folding.

What's your standard raise Chuck 3Xbb? 4X?

Usually pot - 3.5bbs. I've been mixing it up a little more lately (smaller vs the shorties, bigger if deep/against a fish) but not by much.

Wow, really? I'm more inclined to play this hand in position with a bit deeper stacks. If you flop a set vs a big ace or over pair, you may get paid off more. It depends on the player, but I can't see myself open folding late position in an unopened pot with 55 deep.

Definetly raise around 3x BB. If you have 22 on the button the probability of facing a larger pair against two hands is about 11%.

I'm not really worried about facing a larger pair here. I'm more concerned that the raise from the button is so often seen as straight steal that I will get reraised and no longer be getting the odds I need to go after my set. That's why Chuck said he's more likely to fold to the short stack, but I don't think the stacks need to be as short as Chuck said before the reraise becomes a concern.

If we raise to 3.5bb and the blinds fold, that's great.

If we raise to 3.5 and get called that's also great (we're getting great implied odds for when we hit).

If we raise to 3.5bb and get reraised to 10bb we're no longer getting the implied odds we need even from the big stack in my example (put in 10bb to win 85).

You're getting my post mixed up - I'm less likely to raise if the stacks are shorter (specifically 20bb or less). I do agree I'm more likely to raise the deeper the effective stacks are.

Good points and it's an interesting concept. To really look in-depth at this we need to look at our stealing %, our opponents' defending %s, and their 3-bet %s preflop (ughghhhhhh PT3 couldn't come sooner) to determine how likely we are to be 3-bet, called, or folded. Just because a 3-bet from a stack means we're not getting implied odds doesn't mean we shouldn't be raising in this spot since their not always 3-betting, obviously.

As it is with nothing but the reads you gave us it should be a standard raise imo.

Geez I need to get my eyes checked... I read that as 200 not 20. Anyone know a good eye doctor?

Nope

Can we think about min raising in spots where a 3bet is more likely (we've been stealing or our opponents have been aggressively defending their blind(s)) ? This allows us to limit the amount of the 3bet, unless our opponent overbets the pot, and let's us hit the implied odds we're looking for.

Alternately, if we're making our standard raise can we call the 3bet without the right odds because our position and taking the initiative allows us to take pots away postflop even without hitting our set?

I really have no idea what the most correct play is here (or if there is one), but it's just a situation that I seem to have run into several times in the last few days.

there is never really a correct one i would say WV just different ways lol.....like you guys say depending on the stack sizes it changes the way you play the small pair....I limp in bigger tables cuz if im hitting my set i want a lot more people to be in with there money too...although with only 3 players blind stealing is critical and can determine the outcome of the game...I would just stay raising the pot like Chuck said against larger stacks...and maybe even raise against small stacks also.....if they push aren't they more likely to have a desperate hand anyways and your likely to be ahead with a pair?

I dont think there is ever one correct play, it just depends on the exact situation end how its been playt so far.

Raising 3-4 BB on the button could look like a steal and might be
re-raised by an rag ace on the other hand they might fold if the have crap hands, or try to end the hand with a big raise if the also have a small pocket par. And the button raise might get flat callt with a marginal hand (suited conectors,K9,Q10,J10,)

Min raising could also look like and weak atempt to steal, or a monster screaming for action and might scare them of that sayt i doubt the BB folds a min raise coz he is probly getin prised in expept if he has 72 offsuit.

And then there is the option no online player ever talks about and allways say it wrong(even if the best in the world do it all the time),
that limping on the button that whould look like a suited conector,small pp looking for a set(U),marginal hand seeing if he can steal post flop or what whould whant them to think is an monster hand(AA,KK) just dieing to get some action and whants to give the blinds a shot a catching up.

Any way all that sayd i just got in this same situation when i was writing this at an fulltilt sng(had 44) and i raised 3 times the BB and the small blind min raised me i call flop came 4-7-9 he whent all in and i call he turnt over J9 and i won.

Well that's all fine and good, but if we're up against competent players who are even semi-observant we then have to minraise with our strong hands as well for balance and that's not something I like to do in LP.

I think that, unless we're up against people who are 3-betting a huge percent of the time, stealing is profitable here with 3-4bb raises.

Yes, I'll occasionally do this. We have to be sure we can take the pot away enough of the time though. I'll usually do this vs very straight forward opponents since they usually telegraph their hand strength very easily through their bet sizing, or if not via that method than we can determine how likely they are to have hit the board and attack them.

well myself i enjoy limping with pp in late position. cause they wont be expecting a set when a low card come out cause u showed no str. but sometimes if u dotn raise specially late in tourny itll hurt u long run

i know this is off topic but rhese strategy threads are so helpful...lol...jusdt thought id add that!

But this is why the raise with a small pocket pair is so good. It gives the impression that you have overcards, so when the set hits and you bet it, it looks like a C-bet.