Playing Rags - How bad am I spewing chips???

#1 17th February 2010, 3:00 AM

Long story short at $10nl where I believe I should be crushing the game, my winrate sucks, I'm spewing chips somewhere. I'm playing increasingly looser and my winrate is going down so I've got to tighten up but there's few actual hands that I'm playing that are costing me money...

Instead I think it's these spots where I play any two cards, which to be honest is at least once or twice per orbit in 6 max.

I'd appreciate it if someone could go over this and tell me if there's anything they disagree with.

BB vs SB Completion
If it's folded to the SB who limps, I'll raise 72o-AA to about 4xbb. I'm then cbetting almost 100% of flops if checked to.
The only time when I don't do this is if I've done it a few times in a row and I've got rags, then I'll just check and see if I can catch a miracle flop or if villain will do something stupid to hand me the pot post-flop.

SB vs Nit BB
If it's folded to me in the SB, I'll raise ATC to 3xbb, the reason this raise size is smaller is because I need them to fold less often. To be honest making this play I know I'm way out of line and if they fight back at all I'll stop. Post-flop I'm really taking a one and done approach to cbetting unless they've got hugely exploitable floating tendencies which is rare for nits, I'm OOP with a weaker range and I know that.

Blind vs Idiotic limping fish
This happens way too often, which is good I guess.
When there's 3-4 other players who've limped and I'm on the BB, we've now got 5bb in the pot, my range is probably top 80% of all hands, I'm raising to say 6bb, essentially betting 5bb more to win 5bb, when someone calls then I've paid 5bb to play in a usually heads up pot of 10bb+my 5bb raise as pre-flop aggressor.
The complication is when calling stations are involved, then I'll have a really, really wide value range (still probably top 30% of hands).

CO/Button vs Blinds
When it's folded to me I only raise 2bb. This is because it gives me all kinds of advantages, if you want I can go into this but honestly I can write a dozen pages on blind stealing, for simplicty sake it will suffice to say that 2bb is a good size.
As long as I'm raising 2bb I will raise literally any two cards and there's no effective method of blind defence that will make me tighten my range.
If between the small blind and big blind their combined VP$IP from the blinds totals about 40 or more (which takes guesswork to figure out) then I'll change my raise size to 3bb or 4bb (depending on how frequently they're calling) and tighten my range.
If I'm 3bet while raising to 2bb, as long as the 3bet is 3x or 4x and we're reasonably deep, I'm calling really wide, Axs, all pocket pairs, SCers (including suited cards with one gap), unsuited connectors, sometimes most broadway cards other times only KQ, AQ+ depending on what I think their range is. If they raise bigger then my range is quite strong but very player dependent.
If I'm raising to 3bb or 4bb and get 3bet... nah, that's too long winded, suffice to say that I'm against fish so it's a wide value range.
Also I rarely if ever 4bet light since I'm not convinced I've come up against anyone who isn't 3betting for value here, usually they just call with their weak hands and 3bet their strong hands. Light 4betting is something I'll work in as I move up.

Blind defence
Any time I see a significant difference between the steal attempt and PFR stats on anyone but a calling station, I'm 3betting really wide like maybe top 30% of hands. I actually have a little trouble with turning my hand face up here with my raise sizes because I have no idea what I'm doing, I like 3x for stealing and I like 4x for value but I don't like stealing with 4x or going for value with 3x... so I kinda fumble around and hope no one notices until I figure out what I'm doing.

Min-raises
I hate 'em, I hate 'em, I really hate 'em.
I don't know what they mean but I can't fold, I know I'm paying them off, I know it, but I can't fold.
Let's say I raise to 40c in the CO, BB makes it 70c, I'm calling 100% of the time, even if I've got K8o I'm calling. He's giving me roughly 3:1 on my money and I've got position, I'm not going anywhere. Post-flop I've got no idea what to do because he min-raised but I'm not folding pre-flop. If I'm OOP it's 4bet or fold, I almost never flat call OOP.

PFR vs Donk bets
If they bet say 10c into a $1 pot I'm raising to 70c even with 23o on an AKQ board (read as any two cards on any board) but to be honest I run into big hands quite a lot, even on say a J82r board.
However I take them seriously when they donk 2/3 pot, I'll float it really wide if I've got overs or draws or backdoor draws or if I can somehow convince myself that I've got say 20% or better equity against top pair, but if I've got air or an underpair or something without some kind of draw or showdown value then I'm gone. Every time I play back at them they've got something, I have no idea how everyone keeps saying donk bets are weak.

Now, if I'm lucky someone will come along and tell me I'm an idiot and I'm doing it all wrong and correct me.

Edit to add: With the button/CO stealing raise size, I raise 3x as standard from CO and 2x as standard from button but if button is a nit I'll often get cheeky and raise 2x from CO too if I can get away with it.

#2 17th February 2010, 5:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thepokerkid123

Long story short at $10nl where I believe I should be crushing the game, my winrate sucks, I'm spewing chips somewhere. I'm playing increasingly looser and my winrate is going down so I've got to tighten up but there's few actual hands that I'm playing that are costing me money...

Instead I think it's these spots where I play any two cards, which to be honest is at least once or twice per orbit in 6 max.

I'd appreciate it if someone could go over this and tell me if there's anything they disagree with.

BB vs SB Completion
If it's folded to the SB who limps, I'll raise 72o-AA to about 4xbb. I'm then cbetting almost 100% of flops if checked to.
The only time when I don't do this is if I've done it a few times in a row and I've got rags, then I'll just check and see if I can catch a miracle flop or if villain will do something stupid to hand me the pot post-flop.

I like it, though I'm also paying attention to villain's reactions to this - fold to cbet, c/r (if any), what does he call down w (i.e., should I be two barreling). I also intentionally let one or two go on missed flops if I've been cbetting 100% and he's starting to call down light. I'll mix it up too - check w a weak hand and w a strong hand here and there.

SB vs Nit BB
If it's folded to me in the SB, I'll raise ATC to 3xbb, the reason this raise size is smaller is because I need them to fold less often. To be honest making this play I know I'm way out of line and if they fight back at all I'll stop. Post-flop I'm really taking a one and done approach to cbetting unless they've got hugely exploitable floating tendencies which is rare for nits, I'm OOP with a weaker range and I know that.

I like most of this - but I stick to about 35% rather than ATC. Again, depends on BB a bit - if he folds often enough, I'll increase to ATC, if he 3bets or calls and floats too much I'll back it off to around 25%. Definitely not interested in continuing w these past the flop unless we hit, oop too hard to 2 barrel.

Blind vs Idiotic limping fish
This happens way too often, which is good I guess.
When there's 3-4 other players who've limped and I'm on the BB, we've now got 5bb in the pot, my range is probably top 80% of all hands, I'm raising to say 6bb, essentially betting 5bb more to win 5bb, when someone calls then I've paid 5bb to play in a usually heads up pot of 10bb+my 5bb raise as pre-flop aggressor.
The complication is when calling stations are involved, then I'll have a really, really wide value range (still probably top 30% of hands).

This one I'm not keen on. With the amount of limped pots at this limit, and the opportunities to play in position, I'd guess this is a leak (not sure though).

CO/Button vs Blinds
When it's folded to me I only raise 2bb. This is because it gives me all kinds of advantages, if you want I can go into this but honestly I can write a dozen pages on blind stealing, for simplicty sake it will suffice to say that 2bb is a good size.
As long as I'm raising 2bb I will raise literally any two cards and there's no effective method of blind defence that will make me tighten my range.
If between the small blind and big blind their combined VP$IP from the blinds totals about 40 or more (which takes guesswork to figure out) then I'll change my raise size to 3bb or 4bb (depending on how frequently they're calling) and tighten my range.
If I'm 3bet while raising to 2bb, as long as the 3bet is 3x or 4x and we're reasonably deep, I'm calling really wide, Axs, all pocket pairs, SCers (including suited cards with one gap), unsuited connectors, sometimes most broadway cards other times only KQ, AQ+ depending on what I think their range is. If they raise bigger then my range is quite strong but very player dependent.
If I'm raising to 3bb or 4bb and get 3bet... nah, that's too long winded, suffice to say that I'm against fish so it's a wide value range.
Also I rarely if ever 4bet light since I'm not convinced I've come up against anyone who isn't 3betting for value here, usually they just call with their weak hands and 3bet their strong hands. Light 4betting is something I'll work in as I move up.

I get your point, and agree for the most part. However, I'm guessing you very rarely get 3bet, and if you get called you'll be playing in position - at this limit, have you evaluated whether it might be more profitable to play slightly larger pots in position w ATC?

Blind defence
Any time I see a significant difference between the steal attempt and PFR stats on anyone but a calling station, I'm 3betting really wide like maybe top 30% of hands. I actually have a little trouble with turning my hand face up here with my raise sizes because I have no idea what I'm doing, I like 3x for stealing and I like 4x for value but I don't like stealing with 4x or going for value with 3x... so I kinda fumble around and hope no one notices until I figure out what I'm doing.

Have you checked your winrate in 3bet pots oop? If it's working, great - and I doubt you're getting 4bet a heckuva lot.

Min-raises
I hate 'em, I hate 'em, I really hate 'em.
I don't know what they mean but I can't fold, I know I'm paying them off, I know it, but I can't fold.
Let's say I raise to 40c in the CO, BB makes it 70c, I'm calling 100% of the time, even if I've got K8o I'm calling. He's giving me roughly 3:1 on my money and I've got position, I'm not going anywhere. Post-flop I've got no idea what to do because he min-raised but I'm not folding pre-flop. If I'm OOP it's 4bet or fold, I almost never flat call OOP.

I hate 'em too, and I'm always tempted by the odds. I decided a long time ago, though, that unless I had a hand that flops reasonably well that I should be letting these go.

PFR vs Donk bets
If they bet say 10c into a $1 pot I'm raising to 70c even with 23o on an AKQ board (read as any two cards on any board) but to be honest I run into big hands quite a lot, even on say a J82r board.
However I take them seriously when they donk 2/3 pot, I'll float it really wide if I've got overs or draws or backdoor draws or if I can somehow convince myself that I've got say 20% or better equity against top pair, but if I've got air or an underpair or something without some kind of draw or showdown value then I'm gone. Every time I play back at them they've got something, I have no idea how everyone keeps saying donk bets are weak.

Calling and floating is a leak imo - I gave that up a while ago, if I can't get them off of their hand w the raise, I generally give up unimproved.

It's hard to get a read, but my experience is that for a few players, min - 2/3 donk bets are strong, but for the majority of players it's weak. The better Villain's stats (say, good TAG stats), the more likely it is to be strong at this limit - the laggier or the more passive the stats, the more likely it is to be a middle pair. I try to figure out the difference as quickly as I can, cuz I don't want to pay off the guys who donk strong.

Now, if I'm lucky someone will come along and tell me I'm an idiot and I'm doing it all wrong and correct me.

Edit to add: With the button/CO stealing raise size, I raise 3x as standard from CO and 2x as standard from button but if button is a nit I'll often get cheeky and raise 2x from CO too if I can get away with it.

Overall imo - beware FPS at this limit. It's too easy to pick up dead money w ABC play to get overly fancy. Based on table dynamics, all of these strategies are solid and well reasoned and can work - but at some tables, you should dispense with alot of the fancier stuff and focus on positional and skill advantages.

From personal experience - don't try to win every pot - one of my biggest leaks at micro is thinking "there's no way in hell hand XY could possibly get to the river, he'd have to be a huge donkey to show up w that hand" and calling w the worse hand. Not saying not to be intelligent about these things and fold to any little bit of aggression, but they do show up w those hands that should never have gotten to the river. When passive fish start raising the turn or the river, they've got something - the only question is whether the something they've got is better than our something, they don't think about what we're holding, but TPTK is usually garbage there.

#3 17th February 2010, 6:06 AM

Thanks for the response.

Mostly I think you're right. 3betting OOP I think might be ok though, most people at $10nl are really bad at dealing with light 3bets and the only 4bets I'm faced with are infrequent enough that they look to be for value.

The 2bb raise size I'm pretty sure is +EV though, I started off with 4bb and changed it to 2bb, my graph for steals (the only time I raise smaller is when no one has come in before me) gradually went up and when I changed it started shooting up. I only have a VP$IP of 37 on the button so I don't think it requires an abnormally weak range.
Definately something I'd recomend.

I think I'll cut down on most of the other stuff though, my VP$IP/PFR are about double what they should be at the moment, which can't be good.

#4 17th February 2010, 7:06 AM

I do 3 BB for steals. I think 2 BB makes it too easy to call. Then again I play 25-50NL.

Tight is definitely right at micros. Pick your spots. I wouldn't be raising the button with ATC or 3betting from the blinds as much as you do. I know that I'll frequently give someone credit the first time they 3bet me, but if it becomes a pattern I'll start 4betting and tighten up.

As for the donk bets, at this level raising might not always be the best idea. We know there's something a little off about anyone who min-bets into a PFR so I wouldn't be trying too many fancy moves on them. You don't have to win every hand.

I think you're WAY too aggressive - being aggressive vs. 1 or 2 limpers in position is fine, but if I'm in the BB with 3-4 limpers I'm raising with only a select few hands. The fact is you're out of position against loose, call-y players - catch a cheap flop and see if you can get value out of them post flop when you hit something. Aggression is fine, but be careful about aggression OOP against 3-4 limpers.

Maybe I was a little hard on you, but I'm frequently at war with players like you who are 3-betting me half the time.

#5 17th February 2010, 8:10 AM

Ok, I think in general your heart is in the right place, agression is good! Also you seem to have a knack for math, and you're thinking outside the box and using garbage hands to enhance your game. But here are my critiques on what you've been doing:

BB vs SB Completion:

I think this is fine as long as you are playing the type of player who will let you get away with it. If you are playing vs a calling station, or a LAG or a maniac on your right, you can get into a lot of trouble firing two shells with nothing as they might call you pre with 75o and then call you down when they hit a 5. But if you find that this move is working on the guy to your right, then by all means don't let up. I sometimes like to check-back with position and then fire a min-bet into the pot if they check the flop. Seems to have a high success rate and it only costs you an additional ten cents instead of well... I guess it'd cost $1 your way, depending on how much you cb.

SB vs Nit BB

Again I don't like building the pot pre, because it makes it harder to steal on the flop. If they're a nit, just limp in and if they raise, you know you're beat and just lay down. If they check you know the pot is yours for 10c on the flop 80% of the time. You don't have to always steal preflop.

Blind vs Idiotic limping fish

In $10 NL a lot of people who limp are going to call 60 cents also. So take the free flop and try to hit big. You WANT to see cheap flops with these awful players, because when you have 72 and the flop comes K72, they might hand you a stack with KT. Otherwise, they'll end up just calling with the best hand against a good chunk of your range. Don't forget, if they limp and you raise out of position from the BB, they'll have position on you when they call. Keep it cheap.

CO/Button vs Blinds

Yep, this strategy works beautifully, keep it up. I prefer 2x to 3x just because 2x works so so so often. Especially against nitty BBs.

Blind defence

Sounds like you have a good strategy here. I prefer to call and take a flop, and then lead out really wide. Because a lot of people know to try and steal pre, but then they miss the flop and don't know what to do. It keeps the pot smaller too.

Min-raises

"Pot odds" are not as important when facing a min-reraise as thinking about your implied odds (and reverse implied odds) here.

If you have $10 in front of you and you call a .70 reraise with K8o, are you prepared to play the hand to showdown if you hit one pair? If you hit the flop and it comes K 7 3, and he leads out for 2/3 pot, can you call? Do you really want to raise? If you do, you're tying up about 20% of your stack in a spot where you're usually behind... but maybe he's just overplaying TT-QQ. It's a truly awful spot. K8o is a hand I would just open fold if I'm deepstacked because you HAVE TO HIT 2p to feel confident about your hand.

You really would prefer to call a small reraise with is something like 76s or a small pair. That way there are a lot of flops where you will KNOW that you have a hand that can stand some heat on a good chunk of flops. If the flop comes A 8 5, maybe he'll try to check his AK trying to "trap" you. If you flop 8s 5s Qx or 7x Qs 2s you'll have a hand that can give AA or KK a run for its money in a big pot. You might get really lucky and hit 2-pair or a straight or flush. But you'll usually have an easy decision if the flop comes A K T or even A 7 4. You can easily get away from the hand if there's much action. But the point is, you'll have either a monster hand, a good draw, or a weak hand.

You won't have the horrific post-flop decisions you'll have to endure with A7 and K8. Generally I'd give up on off-suit weak Aces and Kings, or maybe open-fold them because they are hands that will get you sucked into big pots that you will usually lose.

PFR vs Donk bets

This is why I LOVE to bet .10 on the flop!! If someone makes it .70 I'll probably just give it up, but then I could make the same bet with a set or something and 3-bet it... Just call and take the free card. Although I think mixing in some bluffs here (against the right players) is good as well.

* * *

I see why you do what you are doing, and it all makes sense mathematically, but you are essentially playing 2 levels above these guys, and they can't comprehend the esoteric plays you're trying to make. And usually when bad players are confused, they'll call you down.

I think the biggest mistake you are making is creating these huge pots pre with steal attempts against players who probably won't give up without a fight.

In 10NL:

Players who call pre, are probably going to see a flop with you. Go ahead and let them unless you have a premium hand.

Players are usually way too strong or way too weak in their blind defence. So raise the min, if they are too tight, you will win easy cheap pots. When they reraise you, you will lose the min.

And maybe most importantly:

Players play very badly postflop. So don't create these big pots with marginal hands by reraising preflop. Instead, toss hands like K8, A7, maybe even ATo; and instead, get in cheap with hands where you can destroy people if you get the right flop like Axs 75s and 22.

Hope some of this helps!

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