Playing live 1/2

I understand the tables are generally pretty weak at these levels, but you also have a difficult time isolating. Bets are sometimes 5-10bb and 3bets are not typically light. So my question is what is a good strategy to take for a guy who wants to play in a live game but has little experience in it. Anything I should know before I play.
What etiquette should I be familiar with, how often should I tip the dealer, what is an appropriate tip? Are there some rules that could catch me offguard and accidentally screw up a hand or something like that I should know about?
Any tips or knowledge would be appreciated.

Etiquette? Be generally nice/polite and tip the dealer $1 pot, $2 for a big pot. There is no such thing as a table of all lose or tight players at any level. You'll generally see bigger preflop raises casino live than online. You'll also need to be aware of different starting hands. People try to get a lot more sneaky 57s 68s 7T kinds of hands into pots knowing if they hit against someone with a big pocket they're likely to take down a big pot. It also helps to disguise your holdings playing more of these hands cheaply since live you're only at 1 table and if you only play premium hands you're going to have problems with only winning small pots or losing big pots.

Always set mine, you'll get paid (and probably be getting like 4:1 pre-flop anyway).
Don't use 3xbb for your raises, or even 5xbb, do random looking amounts like $9, $11, $12, then raise bigger with your premium hands. No one will notice your bet sizing unless it's consistent.
Forget about tells.
Know that a lot of the people you're playing against are gamblers, not poker players.

Etiquette = don't act like an idiot.

Thanks for reminding me. Prime numbers at the casino! 7,11,13,17,19

-Raymond

Someone told me that you have to show your cards at showdown, or that you ca be forced to show your hands if it gets to showdown- something like that, is that true? Also do you have to show both or only one card when you do showdown the winning hand- does that even matter. I heard there are some little rules like that that I should be aware of.
Thanks for the info!

You have to show your cards if you bet and are called. You have to show 2 cards to win a showdown. Technically a player can ask to see your cards once ina blue moon if they suspect you are somehow cheating or working with someone, but abuse of that rule will quickly get them shunned from the table.

ok makes sense- I'm not too worried about it since I'm not a bluff machine but some friends were going up to the casino nearby and I figured I can go up and lose a little $ and its not gonna kill me, I dont really expect a great result since this will be my first time live (outside of some home games) and I'm sure it will be an adjustment that will most likely result down, I figure tight play and solid poker maybe I'll leave with some of my $

Online 2-3 people play in a hand, but in live -- pretty much the whole damn table plays every hand.. Crazy.

Where is the casino? In the US? If in the US East or West Coast? All important factors - very different styles of play.

Some quick tips:

1. When you first sit down, fold your first dozen or so hands unless you have monsters: AA, KK, QQ, JJ,TT, AK, AQ maybe AJ. This will give you time to observe the table, see the type of players, and give you a good, tight table image.

2. Try tipping the dealers between 5% - 10% of your winnings. If you take care of them, they will look out for you and typically will be more patient if you make a mistake, give you more time to make decisions, etc.

3. The whole see your cards thing is overrated. It will rarely happen that a player demands to see your cards in that situation. A good thing you can do, especially on a "friendly" 1/2 game is show your uncalled monster hands in the beginning. This will make people like you, respect you and less likely to call you later on when you decide to take a stab at the pot.

4. Some casino specific rules you should ask about are:

A. Ask if the line plays. Some casinos require you to count your chips BEHIND YOUR CARDS. ANY FORWARD MOTION BEYOND YOUR CARDS COULD BE CONSIDERED A BET. Watch out for that one.

B. Ask about their bad beat jackpot, any promotions, etc. Many times casinos will run "rack attacks", AA cracked, etc.

C. Ask about specific house rules, the dealer will tell you.

5. Do not talk to a player if he/she is in a hand and you are not.

6. Do not talk about a hand if you are not in the hand.

7. Don't be a day dreamer and have to be asked to post your blinds, pay attention and post them when it's your turn without being asked.

8. Always keep your hands visible and above the table. Don't keep them away or under the table - other players may think that you are cheating.

9. Don't openly criticize or commend anyone's play. Doing so could give other players information about your level of play.

10. Finally, smile, be friendly and try to get the table to like you.

Thats some good tips Kasanova.

In my limited live experience it seems abc poker gets the job done. The 1/2 stakes compare to the level of play at 2NL online with people overplaying weak aces, small pocket pairs and other trash.

It really depends on your table. At the 1/2 game don't expect to get a lot of pros. Most of them watch it on ESPN and maybe have a home game they go to from time to time. Work your math, your reads (they are there - but no book of tells is going to give you all the information you need), and play your top game. When you start getting sleepy/bored it may be time to take a break.

I like to pick up my chips and go do something else for about an hour if my stack is up and I'm not getting hands or action. I have the full intention of coming back and buying in again, but good to have your winnings off the table if you can't use them to your advantage.

Be patient

Pay attention (the dealer is your best friend and will help you if you need it, tip when you pull a pot)

Also, if you intend to chop, do it with every hand or not at all....(at this level I usually ask the people around me if they chop or not, just a little etiquette and keep the game on the friendly side)

Play tight

Take down your fair share of the social security money there because it won't be around when you are old enough to collect

And, by all means, be a gentleman/woman by respecting the game and those that play it (I'm sure you weren't born in a barn and your mother or father taught you right)

Good Luck and Enjoy

I'm sure other posters have said similar things, but just to reinforce:

1) Play tight and wait for good spots to extract value. I know it's hard to believe, but people will still pay you off!

2) Talk to the table and be friendly - although being a dickhead might be effective too, I've just never tried it.

3) I usually tip about $1 every hand that I win, unless it's a weird situation where I'm getting the blinds/1 limper; something to that extent.

4) Have fun.

Thats probably the best advice ive seen, alot of players at these limits tend to be there for the rush of the gamble and not to play real poker - so dont try depending on patterns of play.

Just to clarify my earlier statement of "Forget about tells", I agree with this quote ^ but I think that just about every live player I've ever met would be better off if they ignored tells, they suck at it and mislead themselves horribly.

Poker players tend to be decent to good at poker but terrible with tells.

Tells are an invaluable part of the game that in my opinion you should completely ignore for a long time.

/rant

also try and avoid the better players and dont BLUFF often.. I agree wit hthe tip $1. I Normally tip $1 for every $50-$60 depending on if im up or down

When you play live...first watch acouple of hands before sitting down at the table see how things are being played. Then when you tip the dealer I nornaly go with a one dollar when i win the pot.

As far is tips for playing live. first check out the tables you might want to play at. I wait normaly 20 min watching a table to see how people are playing. Take some paper ( for notes and bankroll manag.) and start writing down hands that are being played for ex: how many times was the pot raise before the flop, how many people where there in the pot before the proflop. How many after the flop. did the hand go to showdown, what was the winning hand and amount of the pot. Take notes on how raises, who folds at what times.

When you go throuht with this questions you feel better when you sit down at a table that you know how people are playing.

Good luck at the tables

There are clues out there. And most of the players at live game's aren't smart enough to hid them, or even know they're giving them.

Also true - most live players aren't good enough to know just because Player A does something under a certain circumstance, doesn't mean Player B does something in the same situation.

Also - just because Player A does something doesn't mean Player A always does something.

Some people (myself included) have certain tells they give off intentionally at live games. Going to bluff? Look at cards, count to four, scratch your nose, raise. Get caught? Noted. Got the nuts? Look at cards, count to four, scratch your nose, raise.

It takes a lot of experience to know when your tells are good and when they're not, and perhaps it's true that newer live players shouldn't make plays based off of tells, that doesn't mean ignore them

It just means you're at the learning stage of this aspect of poker.

WG

thanks for all the feedback as to where I'll be it's in Kansas City. We have a few decent poker rooms out here and I have always understood 1/2 live to be fairly awful as far as player caliber is concerned and that a generally ABC approach works. I probably fit into the same category as a lot of the folks there save I've played a few thousand hands online. I mean like 200,000 or so- still not like a crazy amount of experience. Patience...whew that'll be rough.

My first time to the casino some drunk around 21-22 year old came in with about 100$ It was just 4 players at the table becuase it was like 4 AM. And even if he won the 1 and 2 blinds he would tip the dealer like 5-10$ a hand. He rebought like 3 times and even tried giving me chips which i turned down because thats illegal. I have no point to this story just thought it was funny and its fun taking drunk peoples chips

Outstanding, glad to here people can be so friendly with their money.

POSITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111


play as many reasonable hands in position for cheap when you can. almost everyone playing $1/$2 live plays fit-or-fold and plays their hands pretty much face-up...that is, when they raise preflop and check in first position on a 7 4 2 board, they have AK. find out who will fold and who will call with overcards.

Figure out what raises mean from certain players. Some people are only going to raise with absolute monsters. There are several older gentlemen who play tight passive preflop; when they raise they have a huge hand, when they reraise they have AA.

Here are some good tips i've picked up for 1/2 NL thru the years:



- Generally shown down hands are stronger then online play. Occasionally you'll get the town donator, but against a lot of players if big money is going in, its a big draw or a big hand. Big hands = big pots, small hands = small pots!!

- be cautious about value betting thin, it is a great skill to learn and I totally advocate it, but playing 1/2 is not playing HSP on TV... and you are not Durrrr no matter how hard you try.

- iso-raising in position is a lot harder playing live, hence standard raises are much larger ($10-20) usually since everyone wants to get into the action and if there are a couple limpers, iso-raising on the button w/ T8s probably won't work. Of course this works to your advantage if you have monsters PF. But speculative hands you should try to get in cheap, and flop big.

- try your best to use position to your advantage, semi-bluffing the right opponent in position is very profitable because they will be afraid of future bets on later streets.

- Your big money makers will still be AA/KK/QQ, AK/AQ, 22+, suited connectors and Axs. JT-KQ while playable are best to play in position and for smaller pots.

- Exercise pot control if you can, sometimes people will call any bet you put out regardless of the "math" involved. If he has 15 outs and you have 1 pair, he won't fold to your bet on the flop OR turn. People are there to gamble!

- people who 3-bet usually have JJ+ or AK occasionally. But i'd say 80% of 3-bets are QQ+. People do not 3-bet light at live games, some people flat call QQ/JJ as well multi way action.

- playing live is not like online, I've seen online players struggle to adjust to live play. The action is slow and sometimes frustrating, don't get impatient, don't get desperate and feel the urge to raise every hand.

- I honestly feel the best style of play is a Tight aggressive style, but it is OK to limp along with the table once in a while, you don't have to come in guns blazing with a raise all the time in MP with 77 for example. Play speculative hands for cheap.



Obviously these points will probably ONLY work for 1/2NL, maybe 2/5NL, but from my experience live, the players at 3/6NL are a better stronger then 1/2NL so some of the tricks here will not work obviously.

Hope that helps, GL.

I had a dealer berate this guy at the table when he didn't tip his usual buck because he said there wasn't enough there to justify tipping the buck. The dealer was all fired up because the guy was being a jackass anyways. She remind us all that she's working hard and lives on her tips, seven days a week. It just rubbed me the wrong way. His response was to not tip her again and complain that he'd never heard a dealer beg so badly for tips.

I thought to myself while this was all occurring, should I tip her when it comes to my next rake? I came to the conclusion that no, I'd pass on her too to make a statement and get a new dealer called. But when the time came, I tipped her double because a little birdie told me it was the profitable play. Everyone at the table was combative already because of a few competitive hands. In my opinion being the most "liked" guy at the table doesn't always mean being the most respected player. I think it's possible that over the next few hours, people didn't play as many hands against me and I certainly had the dealer on my side in all the ways that Cassanova et al describe. To me that alone is worth the $2. I pissed off the one guy at the table that cared how people were tipping (self appointed table captain professional playing serious poker at a $1/2 table on a Saturday night)

I won't attribute the $2 tip to every dollar won, but I'll give it a tip of the cap as a great play outside the game.

Thanks everybody for the tips, it really made the experience a lot better.
Had a good time, I did a little bit better than tripling up. And keeping the majority of it as a casino bankroll. I figure that way the future bad beats dont set me back as far.
I did have a question about when people go to the casino- I went on friday and there were around 15 tables running and the game was super soft- value bet or fold were the two big moves of the night for me.
Are games usually crazy soft at 1/2 in casinos or just on fridays/the weekend?

They're soft always

aloto f times also people will LIMP i nand call becauseo f "POT ODDS" especially at a light table where action is slow once 2 people call every1 is calling with junk hoping to hit at times.

My expierence with 1/2 is to try change locations alot i platy at a few house games but every1 pretty much knows how each other plays. But casinos during 3 day weekend are great for the younger crowd who parties get drunk nad play cards.... For example here atatlantic city alto fo peopel party poker and ocne the c,lub gets out at 3:00 -3:30 many people sotp by with that extra $100 to play cards while there friends watch EASSSSYYY MONEY! So i sleep all day card all night

Having talked to quite a few live players, one thing that usually gets mentioned is that 1/2 is considered one of the hardest levels. I have to say from what I've experienced, I'd agree with that. A lot of 1/2 players like to play 1/1 and play it like a 1/2. They do this because the players are generally weaker post flop and can make more money out of the game since there's a lot more inexperienced players at these tables.
One thing that's apparant is that you can lose a LOT of money if you're not carefull at both these levels.
If you're a newbie, this level should be given a bit of a miss until you're ready for it. Obviously some are more ready than others.
It's dead right that isolation is a nightmare. Generally at the Casino I usually attend, in the 1/1 game you get about 3 or 4 limpers to the button, who then raises about £6 and the limpers turn into callers. 1/2 is just as bad w.r.t. being able to get the players down. Because of this there get somes scarey money in the pot preflop. Usually the field limits after the flop when there's a decent bet.
From my experience, the problem with this is that a 'decent' hand in early position doesnt really get any respect, and to avoid that situation, you need to put some hefty bets in there - even that's not gauranteed to work. I see so many people lose a stack on decent enough hands like JJ or QQ who think that 3-5bb raise will do the job but instead builds a large pot, out of position where everyones having a pop.

My advice for an inexperienced player at this level is firstly work out the table dynamics. If if too aggressive, move on. Sometimes that's not pracatical. You may have waited for 40 mins to get in a game for example and there's a huge list waiting.
If that's the case and you still want to play, I'd recommend playing the short stack. This isn't really the most 'popular' advice you'll get. I gaurantee you'll get lots of replies rubbishing this. I know and understand the arguments for stacking up very well but I think if inexperienced at this level, you're gonna get outplayed - mostly after the flop.

My strategy would be to buy in at the level where you could push and it will make some players think about it. If its a very weak table, I'd buy in absolute minimum and the more aggressive it is, I'd increase it slightly.
Here you're aim isn't to get in there and make a lot of money, it's more to get the experience at the table and be extremely tight so you don't lose much. Don't misunderstand this - I want you to make money, yes of course BUT with the smallest risk possible because the chances are you're looking in decent shape to do exactly that.
When you're good hand comes you ship it. I need to point out that hands like JJ are not going to withstand 2 callers very well. If you're last to act and there's 3 players commited QQ won't hold up on an aggressive table either, so you're still going to have to chose your moments as best as possible. You have to be very very patient. BTW When I say premium, I'm talking AA, KK, AK etc widening the range for the amount of likely callers at the table. For example if you're stack is £80 in the BB and by the time it gets round to you there are 4 callers who've called an UTG raise for £40 each, I don't think pushing your AA would be wise with your stack. You have to have some intellect to what you're doing. AA is less than 50% with 3 players neve mind 4. Someone might quote something here like if you play this 100 times at those pot odds blah blah. Not interested in that argument. You want minimum risk till you know what you are doing.

Not convinced? Here's something to ponder - betting skew!
Casinos, have a maximum on roulette. Do you know why?? Because, for statistcs to work correctly they want everyone to bet a reasonably managable amount so that over 1 million hands the statistics kick in and they make a profit. What they dont want is for to give you the opportunity to be able to bet £1,000,000 on a single bet and get lucky! The betting is skewed and produces what is known as a black swan! i.e. a very low probability event that can have huge consequences. Statistics with manageable bets will ALWAYS win. That's how Casinos have lots of money and we don't. IMO You should aim to do the same, but in your case its avoiding betting skew to avoid losses. Here's what I mean.... You bet 99 hands at between £1-£3 and win. You bet 1 hand at $1000 and lose. You've won 99% of your hands but lost a lot of money.... because its skewed! Something I believe a lot of poker players totally miss when they sit at the tables and count their outs for their draws!!

Anyway, by betting like this, you will:

1. Limit you're exposure to being outplayed both before and after the flop. This is because you are totally FORCED to play premiums.
2. Gets your money in with a good hand.
3. Gets you at the table until you are comfortable to buy in for more.
4. Limits your exposure to losing a lot of money, but gives you a shot at winning something. Remember: I'm advising this because of experience will cost you a lot of money.
5. Force you to learn to play the short stack effectively at this level. There will be many times you'll be doing this - sometimes not by choice. Now's a good time to learn how to maximize it. I actually know a couple of players who do this quite a lot. They are NOT weak players, they are very very good players who know how to play this strategy and build upwards.

The downside is:

1. You have to be very very patient. However, turn this into a positive. Use this time to study and learn what's going on with the players- how much they are betting, how often, what position, who always raises the button, who straddles.
2. You have less folding equity at the table due to your short stack. However, you will have a very tight table image which should help you when you push.
3. When you push, even with you're tight image, you run the risk of still being called by 3+ callers on an aggressive table anyway. But that's the risk you have to take. TBH I've seen huge pots where people have called £200 with 9Ts to hit a gutshot! What I'm saying is you can't totally predict who'll do what. It can get totally messed up and mad, but it does happen. Some people just like to gamble and just don't play to any rules.

If you're stack starts to get low, top it up.

Ideally you'd like to see the flop as cheaply as possible, especially if the table is easy going and lets you breath and you've decided to play with hands like pairs where you really want to hit a set.... that's if the table dynamics allows you to do that. Most tables with charge a lot for that sort of thing.

Hope it helps
Good luck.

I am one of those players ur post is referring to. Inexperienced and trying to learn at 1-2 live games.

Best advice i can give u so far is dont give anything away. Be very robotic. I had more tells than a two-time felon facing life in prison. Ridiculous. Laughed at myself on the way home many times.

And u will get sucked out on. I always thought its online more than anything. BS. U get unlucky in a casino as much as u do online on average.

So the suck-outs and my tells was really what killed me in the beginning. I never lost big money in a hand where i wasnt favorite pre-flop or post flop. My biggest single pot however wasnt knowledge either to be honest. It was luck as well so i dont complain too much.

Prepare urself mentally for the suck-outs. Otherwise come rested and play a solid game and u'll have a bunch of fun.

The good thing about 1-2 live games at ur local casino? Its all the husbands who just wanted to get away from their wives and the regular degenerate gamblers who really dont care about losing money to u. A lotta ppl r not there to learn so thats how u'll accumulate chips.

Good luck