playing the button/co in middle stages of a mtt

k, so i've been trying to explore various ways of playing the button with and without raiseable hands lately; and i feel like ive found something worth discussing.

for the most part it's a feeling out type of thing, varying time to time depending on who is to your left each time. in this though, i want to focus on a solid players in the blinds after you. someone like fpaul or dorkus or chuck etc (sorry if i left you out - you're amazing too, i just want to get to the meat of this post) that will play back at your raises with frequency.

i think the only raiseable hands against someone like this are ones with clear endings, complete trash or a top 5 hand like AKs KK AA JJ QQ 10s. Something that you are normally way ahead of a blind hand with. I think raising with complete trash gives you some action later on, and lets you get away easily without a tough decision.

the "in-between" hands that people like to blind steal with (a6-aq) (k9-kq) should be limped almsot exclusively, because it is pretty much a losing move to raise fold or raise call an all in from here.

keep in mind this is against a player that will most definetly play back at you preflop. against the tight-weak or loose-passive players you need to stick to the normal blind stealing games.

any ideas/suggestions?

um, a quick addendum:

this should only be exercised if you feel you can notice a change in the blinds playstyle that trumps yours. for instance, im sure over time dorkus would notice us limp-folding his blind raises. to be successful with this strategy, you need to notice him raising our limps a lot more and reverse the strategy.

Only against strong players, joose? This is because otherwise you might get stuck being called and having to play the trash?

I remember your comment in your vid; you had Q rag or something and said something about it being a good hand to raise because if you get reraised it's easy to throw away. I thought it was a good idea.


btw, I really liked the third of your vids because you really seemed to be playing the players, position, stack size, with little regard to the cards which I found to be really instructional for me.

uh oh now i have a big ego. thanks so much for the praises, i appreciate them.

why i would only exercise these moves against good players (and maybe weak tight too since they fold everything and im raising them regardless of cards) is because you know where you stand 100% of the time, and that information is almost as important as knowing their actual cards. you wont get stuck in a situation calling an all in reraise from a shortstack for 1/8th-1/3rd your chips with marginal hands. you can just safely toss it away and be glad that next time you raise with aa, you will get tons of action.

more loose passive players will call with a huge range, and then youll be forced to play the flop with them with a wider range of hands and little information. the only move youll see from the good players where you have to play the flop is most likely a stop and go where youll fold anyhow.


edit: keep in mind this is only a thought that i've developed through my recent mtt's. don't take this as gospel. i'm hoping chuck/fp/dm/etc will comment and provide some more insight to this.

I like what you wrote. I normally very rarely try to steal on a complete bluff, but i do get caught up in calling a re-raise with say A10 and marginal hands, so i think your stealing with trash idea is great and def. gonna try it.

Is AQ a hand you wouldnt call a blind re-raise with?

And last question: Youre in the blinds, what hands would you [play back with?

This is something I need to get better at. I always think someone is trying to steal when they raise me on the button. With that being said very rarely do I play back at them with trash but I will sometimes with just marginal hands because I want to make a point that they can't push me around and better have it if they're going to raise it up. Then I feel like I'm behind after the flop a lot and have to get away. I know this still accomplishes my goal usually but I'm just not comfortable overall in that situation yet.

Not to try and hijack your thread Joose. Very good points in it.

im comfortable doing just about anything from the blinds be it a stop and go, raising, 4betting, etc. live and die by the sword!

ARG goddam wireless disconnected me right after I'd written a huge long response

sigh

Point #1, I don't know why the hell you've put me alongside the same class of players like FP and Chris, but w/e :/

I'm a chronic blind stealer, especially in the late stages of STTs where it's an essential tool for survival with the blinds hopping up and the stack sizes shrinking in comparison to them. tbh I never applied any strategy deeper than raising with a tighter hand range vs. solid players, and a wider range vs weak ones.

One thing I personally never do (be it right or wrong) is limp in LP when it's folded to me. I've noticed a bunch of players in tourneys who limp-steal from LP rather than raising the blinds. I hate being victim to the play, but it's been surprisingly effective. I mean the players I see doing it are generally LAP players preflop, and aggressive postflop, so it's hard to fight back against them without a solid hand.

I think I understand your theory; basically it's to limp rather than raise with easily dominated hands like the ones mentioned, and to raise with premiums and absolute trash?

I like the idea, but I honestly can't see myself limping on the button/CO with AQ if it's folded to me. I mean you're giving at least the BB a free flop. Say they've got 8T and hit top pair; you've just wasted a BB + SB + antes steal that they surely would have folded PF.

I do like the limping idea, but raising with AJ+ and KQ might be a better play IMO, and limping with the smaller aces + kings. I mean if you've got a solid player in the blinds, he's most probably going to play back at you with AT+ and probably even KJ if you've been on the steal a lot lately. Limping with those hands is pretty conceiled aswell; most players would try to steal with 'em, and you could win some pretty big pots when players decide to look you up for what they think is a limp-steal and you turn out to have a solid hand.

Say they've got 8T and hit top pair; you've just wasted a BB + SB + antes steal that they surely would have folded PF.

i'm saying it's going to put you in an akward situation vs. a very good player that will shove over you with anything. AQo is not a fun blind re-raise all in call. You are not far ahead in most situations.

Well I think we could argue about that. Obv. stack sizes etc would have to come into play.

i would rather pick my spots than call a ton of chips in a likely 60/40 or 45/55 situation. if we take it down on the flop (or get him to stop and go at it when we hit) or get him to just plain raise, it's worth it to play it slower.

keep in mind, this is only against solid players. against 95% of players i raise every hand in that range.

ok say we raise in LP with AQ, and a 15BB solid player comes over the top of us for all his chips. We're sitting on 25BBs and you don't call?

obv. if he's sitting at 30BBs as are we and he comes over the top with a huge raise, then it's a different story, but like I said I think it's situational (isn't everything?)

ya obv. shorter stacked their moves mean less, im talking 40~bb stacks at least

Good topic.

Not coherent this but a bunch of random thoughts while reading the thread;

I think you are right to introduce the stack sizes into this. Particularly if you are talking MTT where there are usually more subtleties to the play than SnGs. The situation changes dramatically if you are the shorter or larger stack making the steal.

I like the idea of stealing with hands you can let go if reraised but there is definately merit to including in your range hands which can connect well with the flop if called rather than reraised. If limp with KQ then you are really vulnerable to a two pair from Qx or Kx causing trouble on a K/Qxx flop.

Against stronger players there is usually an emerging narrative or storyline to your blind steal attempts and momentum shifts back and forth. Focussing on this can be more important than the cards.

Generally speaking (and assuming you are not shortstacked) if you are stealing it doesn't matter what your cards are because you are not planning to get anywhere near the river. If you got a hand KJ+ (in the SB) is it steal or are you playing the cards on their merit because you are effectively heads up?

Limp-stealing from late position can be effective particularly against opponents capable of laying down 2nd and 3rd pair on the flop. Needs a slightly smaller range than a normal steal though.


Really interested in this subject, particularly thoughts on restealing from the small blind when faced with a raise from the cutoff or button.

i resteal a lot. stop and go a lot. im really aggressive when it comes to my blinds. particularly defense of them.

One of the advantages of a button raise at this time of the tournament is that it is SO TEXT BOOK. It is not uncommon for people to think you are stealing.

I like this alot as it means 2 things.

- I can raise solidly with my premium hands and expect to get called by a weaker holding or even played back at a good amount of times.

If CO + 1 does something like raise 5BB preflop then it is an easy case for the blinds to fold marginal holdings, but if the button does it alot of people will put you on a text book blind steal and call with hands that they would fold to a raiser in earlier position.

- Alternatively, this is much more read dependant, but If one of the blinds who you take to be a LAG player 3 bets your button raise from the you can consider 4 betting him (assuiming deeper then 50bb) with any holdings and get him to lay down a fairly sizeable pot preflop.

I find with these reasons a lot of fun can be had on the button at this stage of a tournament. It is the best time as the stacks are still deep enough to play poker yet with the introduction of antes and escalating blinds the pots are worth stealing.

i agree, it is also my fav. time of a MTT.

Hey Joose, I can never muster the courage to steal blinds from the CO of the button. Is there a certain way to do it? Feel? Or hands requirement? Have you a video of your play? I dont see it anywhere.

http://www.cardschat.com/f11/2-1-07-...mentary-78051/

within that link are 3 other links to a commentary i did on the 2/1/07 cardschat event from start to finish. it is done as i go, which helps provide a lot of insight into why i do what i'm doing. i am pretty proud of it and think you might get some insight to table reads, and moves decided on because of chipstacks/player aggressions/position.

check it out and let me know what you think.

Cool! Thanks for the link and quick reply, I'll check it out once I'm off work.

enjoy. im out for the night, take it easy.

why not go with 10 7.....96....offsuit too..... just a suggestion...

i dont think i understand your point.

just try it...I cant explain right now but just be prepared to throw the hand away. Also if you do hit on one card I would min raise to see where you stand...these hands played right in the pos and situation you are talking about can really pay off.

i cant tell if you are being facetious or not lol.

I see no problem with using this as one weapon in an arsenal of plays. I wouldn't use it all the time, or even most of the time, but as we need to change up our play, especially against what you class as 'strong opponents', then this concept isn't bad.

Like most things, it has advantages and disadvantages, and depends a LOT on relevant stack sizes (the shorter the relative stacks the worse making this play would be).

The problem I have with it is that 'strong' players will generally not play back against a late position raise with anything. They have some standards. Their stack size also has to be optimal for restealing (~15bbs is a good number). So we're losing fold equity by doing this (obviously the bigger the blinds relative to stacks the more of a big deal this is). We also of course risk letting ragged hands in for free and letting them outdraw us.

We of course cannot limp like this all the time, especially against strong opponents who we play with often, because they will invariably catch on to what you're doing and know to either check or stick in a big raise which you and your marginal hand will have to fold to.

This move is 'good' in that a strong player will know that in most mid-late tourney situations, calling an LP raise from the blinds is a horrible idea, as their opponent is handed the initiative in the hand and they will be voluntarily playing a flop out of position against an aggressor. If we limp-call, we are essentially doing the same thing, but we have position. Letting someone else take the initiative isn't necessarily such a horrible idea if we are going to be able to play a pot in position, as long as the stacks are of sufficient size to allow us to get the most out of acting in position.

So yeah, it's reasonable, but best used quite sparingly.

Well put Dorkus...I just wish I had the talent of explaining this stuff. I definately agree with everything you said.