Overplaying A K

I was in the OFC tourney on Absolute yesterday & it was only like the 20th hand of tourney when i was dealt pkt 8s The 2nd guy to act "VegasJJ" raises the BB to $120 & 2 people call behind (me included). Flop comes 6d 8s 10h & since "VegasJJ" is 1st to act after flop he continues to stay aggressive & goes all in for the rest of his stack $1010....i obviously call w/ trips. The raise he made preflop is correct because A K is obviously a good hand & you need to be aggressive w/ it. He did play this hand correctly because he did have to continue his aggression w/ the flop that came & being 1st to act after flop but it goes to show you how A K is overplayed so much & so easy. "Big Slick" is big lame lol.

Stage #713098598 Tourney ID 1515664 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $40 - 2007-04-14 15:24:40 (ET)
Table: 41 (Real Money) Seat #8 is the dealer
Seat 1 - GONHUNTIN ($1120 in chips)
Seat 2 - FLUSHY ($2050 in chips)
Seat 3 - VEGASJJ ($1130 in chips)
Seat 4 - SIMOND1966 ($2890 in chips)
Seat 5 - JP3333 ($1710 in chips)
Seat 6 - OLDBOOKGUY ($3030 in chips)
Seat 7 - ROXY13 ($1010 in chips)
Seat 8 - SPITTIN_ACES ($1500 in chips)
Seat 9 - TALKPKR2ME ($2825 in chips)
TALKPKR2ME - Posts small blind $20
GONHUNTIN - Posts big blind $40
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to SPITTIN_ACES [8c 8h]
FLUSHY - Folds
VEGASJJ - Raises $120 to $120
SIMOND1966 - Folds
JP3333 - Folds
OLDBOOKGUY - Calls $120
ROXY13 - Folds
SPITTIN_ACES - Calls $120
TALKPKR2ME - Folds
GONHUNTIN - Folds
*** FLOP *** [6d 8s 10h]
VEGASJJ - All-In $1010
OLDBOOKGUY - Folds
SPITTIN_ACES - Calls $1010
*** TURN *** [6d 8s 10h] 7♦
*** RIVER *** [6d 8s 10h 7d] A♠
*** SHOW DOWN ***
VEGASJJ - Shows [Kc Ac] (One pair, aces)
SPITTIN_ACES - Shows [8c 8h] (Three of a kind, eights)
SPITTIN_ACES Collects $2440 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($2440)
Board [6d 8s 10h 7d As]
Seat 1: GONHUNTIN (big blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 2: FLUSHY Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: VEGASJJ HI:lost with One pair, aces [Kc Ac - B:As,P:Ac,P:Kc,B:10h,B:8s]
Seat 4: SIMOND1966 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 5: JP3333 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 6: OLDBOOKGUY Folded on the FLOP
Seat 7: ROXY13 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 8: SPITTIN_ACES (dealer) won Total ($2440) with Three of a kind, eights [8c 8h - B:8s,P:8h,P:8c,B:As,B:10h]
Seat 9: TALKPKR2ME (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS

A lesser continuation bet may have been more in line than going all in. Another possibility would be checking to minimize losses. btw, I know VegasJJ and she is a good player. Just shows you that even good players sometimes don't always make really good decisions.

I know the feeling of raising with KA and getting called by KT, A4, etc (or atleast, I think everyone calling has an inferior hand)
My first urge is to "punish" the disrespecters, disregarding the possibility they might have a stronger holding, or hit the board hard enough to call my overbet. I have that under control now, though ;-)

I'm with the "lesser continuation bet." When you come back over the top with the hammer, I'd fold. Her assumption should be that the flop missed you, as well, so it's fair game to pull out the guns. Even if the flop did hit you (not a set), she's thinking at least 6 outs (~25%), so it's not a total disaster to lob the continuation out.

Even good players can donk out! And even donks can make a good play.

Words of wisdom - an unfortunate truth

His PF raise was fine, but I wouldn't even have continued on that flop, let alone shoved. PF bets do more than just thin the playing field, they also provide you with information about your opponents hands. In this case he's out of position against 2 opponents who have anounced solid hands by calling his bet. The all-in was bound to fail.

I think it was ok for him to throw a continuation bet even if there were 3 players in, he had AK and there was a chance the other 2 missed that flop as well. But the pot was only 420, he could have thrown a 200 bet out there and see what happens. Shoving is stupid because if you get called you know you're beat. No reason to do that.


Quote:

Even good players can donk out! And even donks can make a good play.Lol dj11, where did you get that from?

Probably said millions of times before..

AK = Anna Kornakova
Great to look at, I really want to have it, but never seems to win anything!

Amen
heard this a 100 times still brings a chuckle

As I have posted in these forums many, many times relative to AK: Why in the world would I ever go all-in with a hand that loses to a pair of deuces? Many pro's actually place AK behind a pair of tens in the strength-of-hand rankings. I tend to agree.

If you ever read Card Player, you know they have little boxes with facts about poker.

A few issues ago, maybe early Feb, (sorry trash now) one of these 'blurbs' stated that an A or a K will show up by the river 60% of the time. WOW.
60% chance to pair one of those cards!

It took me 1/2 hour to figure that stat out. It is close to valid, but can be determined several ways.

Being the case, You can usually win with AK if you hang till the river and only a pair wins the pot, then this has to be considered exactly where it is ranked, above QQ as a starting hand. I sometimes think I would prefer AK to AA, as AA has a much diminished chance of improving, while AK at least adds str8's. But those thoughts are private and I don't let anyone know I thunk em.

And yes, to those who will ask, any 2 specific cards has that same 60% chance of pairing one of those cards.

dj, your defense of AK is based upon being able to limp it to the river. How many times does that happen in your experience? The thread topic was "OVERplaying AK". Your premise is actually underplaying AK until you pair something. What do you do if you don't pair on the flop? The turn? What if your opponent bets heavily in either of those rounds? Are you mucking an unimproved AK to any bet along the way? Calling mins or checking down to the river with AK because it mathematically pairs one or the other 60% of the time seems a bit flimsy.

DJ, you got those numbers from CardPlayer? I can't allow a stat like that to go unchallenged. It's just plain wrong. You do not have anything close to a 60% chance of pairing AK or any other unpaired hand by the river. The chance of pairing is less than 50%.
(6/49-1)*(6/48-1)*(6/47-1)*(6/46-1)*(6/45-1) = 87.8%*87.5%*87.2%*87%*86.7%=50.5% chance of it not happening = 49.5% chance that it does happen.

But it gets marginally worse. If you're up against a pocket pair, the chance that your opponent trips out even if you do pair one of your overcards gives you less than a 48% chance of winning the hand. It's the losing end of a coinflip. AK is a nice hand if you play it for value and better yet if you're in position. Never shove it in a cash game and only shove in a tournament if your short stacked.

its hilarious how much donkeys over play that hand . Yesterday I saw a donkey call an all in with AK in a ring game. This was on the flop after he had missed his hand and the other dude bet at him. The other dude had a real hand QQ but the donkey caught a K on the turn and stole the pot , talk about a bad beat. I am more aggressive with AK in tournament play then ring games because there the blinds start to creep up.

ace king is over rated so much it is not a hand if u look at the odds ace king hardly ever wins they do sometimes but im saying the odds arent good for them

Bigslick OS is consistently the most over-rated hand in Holdem- just like Anna Kornikova, it looks nice but never wins in ther clutch.

I posted these thoughts in another thread, but I think they are worth repeating here:

The advantages of AK are mostly in it's preflop value:

1. Fold equity. This is the biggest advantage of AK. For me it is almost alway a REraising hand preflop. For you to take advantage of this, you MUST play it aggressively (your opponent must fold). Small pairs can't really call you for fear that you have a bigger pair when you play it aggressively. If you do get called, even by something like QQ, you are still only a slight dog.

2. Pre-flop dominating hand. This is mostly applicable against donks who will call you with Ax soooooded. Inversely, you are only really dominated vs AA or KK (and you have about 30% vs KK).

3. Post flop your top pair always has top kicker when you hit.

Obviously when your opponent goes all in he has neutralized AK's biggest advantage as he can no longer fold. Against two random cards that don't include either and ace or a king you are not that big of a favorite with five to come, as other posters pointed out. But you don't ever really want to be calling an all in with very many hands (AA and KK excepted)-- YOU want to be the one doing the raising or pushing.

Just to look at it another way, let's compare AK to a small pair, say 55.

AK is a dominating hand. IF your raise is called you are (most likely) either:

1. way ahead (vs. a weaker ace)
OR
2. in a 50/50ish race.

With 55 you are (most likely) either:

1. way behind (vs. a bigger pair)
OR
2. in a 50/50ish race.

See the difference?

I read your post on the other thread as well, aliengenius. I sort of knew some of this information already but you put it in words very eloquently. Thanks for the helpful information.

yea i love AK , I dont know why so many ppl hate it . Yea it will miss about 50% of the time but when it connects , its a very strong hand . In tournament play you should push hard with it and late in the game , I am not afraid to go all in with it. Like the guy before me said, I much rather have AK then a stupid low pair. I am still not sure if I should be reraising with it in ring games because of the amount of calls that you get and good luck trying to push that fish of his medium pair.

I play AK alot....suited is my fave...this is one hand that has almost always held up good for me when I have played it aggressively :-)

Joeeagles, you're spot on. If the allin bet is called, your tournament is over. I find doubling the pre flop bet for the continuation bet gives the impression your hand is solid. Looks like you are pushing to make it pay off and keep your apponent from folding. If he reraises you, it's not too late to get out of the hand.

Aliengenius, you are a legend! I read a post like this and realise my grasp of poker is superficial. Thankyou for this information. Very well explained. It's exactly the sort of information I was hoping to find. Cheers!

You are making an incorrect conclusion here by overlooking a pertinent fact. It may well be that A or K appears by the river in 60% of boards, but if you're holding AK, thereby eliminating two possible "outs," that percentage goes down. There was another thread where we did the math. Jamesdeliverer was the resident statistical genius. It turns out the chances of holding AK and pairing at least one of them by the river is about 48%. Still pretty good, but not 60%.

It seems the answer to this question (and so many others) is situationally dependent.
AK is not a "bad" hand pre flop. What makes the play bad is how VegasJJ bet her hand. I just checked my stats and I win with AK about 80% of the time.

She was out of position and overbet her hand. It is that simple.

I agree that many player overplay A K in my experiences. I have been guilty of this myself. I think early on in a toruney it is more powerful than later in a toruney. Players with small pps or middle pps will most likely call an all in reraise later in a tourney then early on because the blinds will be so high they will be pot comitted. Early in tournies the best play is to call the guy who raises and see the flop. If a King or Ace hit the board then you can get the to fold.....even if you put them on a small pp and a jack or higher hit the board you can usually get the to fold their hand after the flop. You must bet the flop though and that will tell you if more information about your opponents hand. (i.e. If he hit a set or not.) It is a top five starting hand though so A K must be played aggresively but with caution.