Over C-betting 3-bet pots... an enormous leak?

Hello people.

I recently discovered what I believe could be the biggest leak in my game since I stopped cold calling small PPs to set mine, Cbetting 3-bet pots as if they were merely raised pots and not taking in to account my opponents greatly reduced 3-bet calling range!

Most of us have been there I guess. You are in the small blind with a tighty to your left. Its folded around and guy steals from the button with a 30% range, you look down and see AJ and pop him back 4X, BB folds, Button calls IP and you go to the flop.

WTF do you do now?

Well before I would look at the board texture as if I have preveously isolated a limper... this is clearly MASSIVELY wrong.

I would therefore like to start a discussion on putting villain on a 3-bet calling range taking in to account position, situation, stack sizes, PFR, Steal% Fold to 3-bet% (do I need call 3-bet too?)

Quite a few variables eh, perhaps for the sake of argument (at the risk of getting flamed with the usual it depends and you have to adjust BS) we can assume he is Mr Average for now?...

VPIP=19
PFR=8
Steal=19
F steal=80
3-bet=2.8
F 3-bet=76

Thoughts?

Think this will be be a good one

Edit: I have read somewhere that people tend to call a 3-bet with the top 6% of there PFR range in that position??? Does this help?

Go to November cash thread page 14-15 i belive and read what i think Chuck an maybe it was WV had to say about 3betting hands like AJ in the blinds.

Yes I just took a look. Some great stuff from those guys. Hoping if I read it through a dozen times it will sink in.

I am kinda confused though as on the one hand they say its right to 3-bet as the fold % shows instant profit yet it is wrong if villain calls as we are probably in terrible shape OOP?

I guess suited connectors that can hit big or completely miss might be better to 3bet from the blinds as post flop will be much simpler. I either give up straight away or stack him good. Come to think of it cant we just 3 bet ANYTHING as long as we have the disciplin to know when his range crushes us post flop. Did ChuckTs implies that doing this would be bad for other reasons?

Would I be right in thinking that if his fold to 3-bet is low then re-popping with AJ would be a better idea and I should steer away from SCs?

I guess flatting in the blnds with AJ could work if I knew he was terrible postflop and C-betted too much?

IMO we need to be further ahead of his stealing range than we would need to be if we had position....

Ok lets say villians call 3bet% is realy high.You 3bet he calls which means his range is wide open.You just made the pot really big by 3betting.You have AJ off flop comes 4h7h10s you are cbetting this right?Which might work because villian might be a fish BUT his call 3bet% might be high because he calls in postion alot to float the flop.So you cbet lets say 3\4 the pot villian calls,then what are you doing on the turn?
P.S.I might have no clue what i'm talking about would like to here from the others as they are >than i on this subject.

If villain calls 6% IP then that is something like 99+ ATs+ AQo KQs. AJo has preflop equity of 33% so this is clearly trouble. My default 3bet range when OOP is now JJ+ AKs AKo and against villain's same range your equity would be 60%. (When IP against most villains I have been 3betting 99+ ATs+ AQo+).

I agree with most of what you say. My thinking on calling/ betting & 3betting in late position is going through a radical re-evaluation right now.

1. first and foremost; set mining, I stopped doing it. Unless you are on the button and a fully stacked Nit opens UTG then calling with sm/ med pp's is such a waste of chips. If villain has a wide range they likely won't pay you off if you hit your set, not to mention the scenarios where you make a set and villain makes a straight, flush or higher set.
2. What stakes do you play? I play 2nl and have found that c-betting with AK that whiffed is so -EV, as is check-raising with air and 3 bet bluffing or semi-bluffing with small suited Aces. I know more advanced thinking says you need a polarized 3betting range, 3bet your stack off range for value and 3bet bluff hands you would normally fold to a raise;i.e. small suited Aces, suited Connectors, complete junk,etc. I have had hundreds of examples where villains called 3bets with ANY TWO CARDS and it is really frustrating to have them call 15bb OOP with Q3 and hit the 3 on the flop and call you to the river when you missed. That is why instead of a polarized range I 3bet a merged range; i.e. QQ+ AK is the range I am 3betting for value and JJ-99 and ATs-AQs, AQo I consider a semi-bluff 3bet range whichh in fact is often a value range against loose opponents.
3. As far as c-betting with JJ or QQ when you 3bet and the flop comes down Axx or Kxx is such a leak. I have found that check/calling is way better as you often get one street of value when they bluff and you call it down. Thanks to WV I have stopped panicking when an A hits the flop and I have KK (it seems like that happens every time!!)
4. Open raising marginal hands in LP. I am starting to feel that playing junk aces, weak Broadways, suited connectors from the CO/ Button is a leak for most novice players. I know skilled players at higher levels need to do this to balance their range and get thin value but in the micros it usually means taking down small pots and losing big ones.

I apologize if I riffed off your OP but it is timely in my thinking right now.my motto is tight=right and tighter=righter. I started playing as 11/10 guy and gradually opened to a 14/10 guy but have contracted reccently and have been running 9/8 my last few sessions.

You will have to forgive my butchery of poker language with the idea I am about to attempt to express!

I think the reasoning behind not 3-betting with AJ has nothing to do with its effectiveness making 90%F2S villian fold, he has no idea what cards you hold and 83 would have same effect. Its more about wasting image equity... is that the right expression? If we 3-bet this guy every opportunity with ATCs he is gonna get pissed pretty quick and start 4-bet shoving over light giving us more to worry about. This is unnecessary and sticking with medium SCs achieves the same end pre-flop but gives us small but safe equity post-flop with either easy folds or hands that pretty much play themselves.

My default defences are similar, AK is always included of course but I will defend with 88 to a button steal, 99 a CO steal and TT if average guy is first to open from the HJ.

I have yet to try but am considering expanding to AQ, AJ, AQs and AJs if he really hates to fold to 3-bets. These hands should put me ahead of his range but I need to formulate some kind of real strategy first and get something written down so this will take more thought.

Like I said I no longer cold call to set mine. I will sometimes complete the SB if there are 2-3 limpers and must admit to occasionally calling a 3-bet OOP for this purpose.

I have read that when 3-betting OOP you should do so with a merged and not polarized range. I need to look in to this further. I play 90% 5NL and the occasional 10NL session at peak times. I am trying to concentrate on playing less tables and really thinking through my play. I don't have well developed "poker thinking" but I am tryting to rectify this. C-betting AK vs 2 others even IP when the flop is low and ragged is something I have recently removed from my game!

I lilke the point you made in "3." If he called your 3-bet and there is an ace or a king on the flop then keeping the pot small is obviously the best way to go with your underpair. Its funny how something so glaringly obvious can be overlooked untill you see it there in glorious print!

No apology needed. Its good to share ideas with a player who is in a similar place. I will take extra care to look out for aces and kings on 3-bet flops when I have those strong but vulnerable underpairs. I started as a 21/14, went to a 15/12 stopping most over-hopeful limping to become a 13/12 and now have tightend up my play from the blinds, dropped 90% of set mining, sitting now approx 11.5/10.5.

Its just frustrating when your screen only fits 4 tables comfortably with so long between playable hands. Perhaps I could switch to 6-max as this would fill my playing time much better. Transfering all my strategy accross is a daunting prospect however!

If he hates to fold, by 3betting AQ, AJ then postflop you will take down small pots when he misses and lose big ones when he as AK, QQ, JJ,etc,

The hardest lesson I've had to learn after starting to use the HUD (PT3) is that a villain with a really wide range still gets premium cards and when you try to outplay them you get them to fold the bottom of their range and get lulled into a sense of complacency and think that TP3K is the nuts and get really surprised on the River. Sure 2/3 of the time you drag a small/ medium pot but when you get stacked or have to fold after putting in 2/3 of your stack is it +EV??? Remember that the expectation of folding is zero and in cash games blinds remain static so there is no need to attack them. You would be better served against the 24/17 guys just waiting until you have position and they overplay their hand and taking their stack. Patience. My last session I played 12 tables and on one of them I was dealt 64 hands in my session and never played a single hand. Despite that it was a profitable little session that would have been better but I tried to check raises with AK when I flopped gutshots and that misfired and I got it all in with KJ after pairing the K against a really loose bad player, guess what? He had AK.

Just think of George Washington or Ho Chi Minh. Instead of charging your enemy, retreat, retreat, retreat until his lines of communication are overextended and his troops are exhausted and then pounce! Use that metaphor for your play, it works wonders.

As far as multitabling, I have a laptop with a 17" screen so I stack my tables it works way better than tiling them. (I can barely read those little screens with my bifocals).