Outrageous Stack discussion

dj11 · Apr 30, 2014

Believe me when I say it hasn't happened to me very often. But it has happened 2 times in 3 days, and I'm a bit baffled by many effects I seem to be seeing. Like;

- Way fewer folk are willing to get into a confrontation with a big stack,
- Stealing is way easier
- Weird folk who seem to think the big stack is some sort of target

In each of these cases my stack was 4x BI + in a 5NL Zone game at Bovada. While I can't offer any hands, and don't really have questions about hands, I do have questions or maybe notions about what I think I see.

So, maybe a discussion about the general population vs big stacks would benefit more than just me.

FWIW, the other day, I had an 6+BI and got nearly no action....to the point that I got bored...odd, I know to get bored at the money machine, but I left out of boredom as much as anything else......

Am I nuts?

How does the population, in general, and maybe specifically, deal with playing against extra big stacks?

micromachine · Apr 30, 2014

All that matters is effective stack size, I buy in for the max and don't vary my play based on stack sizes against villains whose stacks are the same as or greater than mine. Maybe some of you opponents didn't understand ESS or maybe it was just variance causing you to get a lot of action the first time but nothing the second time you were the big stack. In my games I've not noticed regular sized stacks playing differently vs me when I have a monster stack.

SwiftHax · Apr 30, 2014

People just get intimidated by your deep stack, but I don't think it's only because of that. Probably variance causing this, especially in fast holdem.

I do play a bit more cautiously when I'm 150BB and I'm against someone who has me covered. Don't like playing Zoom/Zone Poker deep stacked.

dj11 · Apr 30, 2014

Not about me and my big stack, like I said, it doesn't happen very often. Rather the discussion should be about (hopefully) how the general public, and maybe you, deal with a huge stack at the table.

I know when I am short I am a bit more cautious when there is a big stack in play, but I don't go catatonic.

Oh, and BTW, I always start Zone with a full buy-in, but split over 2 tables. Invariably I bomb out of one table and continue on the other table till I have lost that initial (and only) buy-in. I never top-up/re-buy into a game I have bombed out of. My figuring at that point is that the poker gawds have made their statement and for at least a little while (at least an hour) I show some respect....

SeaRun · Apr 30, 2014

I treat a big stack with respect, 8-9 chances of 10 he's on a roll and / or is a good player and I pay attention to how he's playing and will challenge him only with the right cards. However, I look at it as an opportunity and a chance to hit big when I do get a good hand.

chuG · Apr 30, 2014

I've noticed the same phenomenon, whether it is actual or not.

I suppose its fear really. I don't like playing with a 6x BI purely because I don't expect a lot of action. I tend to join another table.

Cafeman · May 1, 2014

I sit on your left, cos that's the way the money flows. Then, as your mighty stack slowly diminishes, I become less and less scared.

Arjonius · May 1, 2014

dj11 said:
Oh, and BTW, I always start Zone with a full buy-in, but split over 2 tables.

This isn't playing with a full BI. It's 2-tabling with half a BI each. If you're a +EV player, it's costing you money to do so.

duggs · May 1, 2014

Arjonius said:
This isn't playing with a full BI. It's 2-tabling with half a BI each. If you're a +EV player, it's costing you money to do so.

this x10000000

JohnBoyWWFC · May 1, 2014

Thinly veiled brags ITT

dj11 · May 1, 2014

Arjonius said:
This isn't playing with a full BI. It's 2-tabling with half a BI each. If you're a +EV player, it's costing you money to do so.

duggs said:
this x10000000

Thing is, it works for me.

psy0nyd3 · May 1, 2014

DJ I think your hunch is totally correct. Your stack size shouldnt affect my play but I feel like it does it at least in a subconscious way.

I do tend to assume that people who've accumulated 4 BI+ are good players. I know that villains stack should not affect my play but I do notice that I play wearily against the giant stacks. It is much easier for said players to re steal steal my pots.

duggs · May 1, 2014

dj11 said:
Thing is, it works for me.

thing is you can't know this.

SwiftHax · May 1, 2014

dj11 said:
Oh, and BTW, I always start Zone with a full buy-in, but split over 2 tables. Invariably I bomb out of one table and continue on the other table till I have lost that initial (and only) buy-in. I never top-up/re-buy into a game I have bombed out of. My figuring at that point is that the poker gawds have made their statement and for at least a little while (at least an hour) I show some respect....

Hmmm... I don't know if that's such a good idea. Why not buy in for the max at both tables? Are you playing with scared money?

I open 4 tables of Zoom, buy-in for 100BBs and have auto top-up on. Once I'm close to 200BB, I close that table and open up a new one. It reminds me when I won a huge pot against a guy with 300BB or something. He raised preflop, got 3-bet by the button, I 4-bet with QQ, he calls, button shoves for around 60BB. I tank his shove to keep the deep fish in the pot. He actually calls that. I shove the flop and get called by 23 (pair of deuces) Seems like he won a nice pot before.

dj11 · May 1, 2014

Hate hijacking my own thread, but you insist....

duggs said:
thing is you can't know this.

I can, it's my scheme!

dj11 · May 1, 2014

SwiftHax said:
Hmmm... I don't know if that's such a good idea. Why not buy in for the max at both tables? Are you playing with scared money?

I open 4 tables of Zoom, buy-in for 100BBs and have auto top-up on. Once I'm close to 200BB, I close that table and open up a new one. Not confident enough to play deep there.

Invariably, at the start of every session there are things I need to learn. Like am I in the right frame of mind, and are the cards coming reasonably fair or better? The cheap BI and a steadfast rule (for me) of never losing more than 1 full BI (for any session), allow me to reasonably quickly determine these things.

At 5nl at Bovada Zone there is a 2 table limit.

duggs · May 1, 2014

dj11 said:
Hate hijacking my own thread, but you insist....

I can, it's my scheme!

Give evidence that this is a better strategy than buying in full

duggs · May 1, 2014

dj11 said:
Invariably, at the start of every session there are things I need to learn. Like am I in the right frame of mind, and are the cards coming reasonably fair or better? The cheap BI and a steadfast rule (for me) of never losing more than 1 full BI (for any session), allow me to reasonably quickly determine these things.

At 5nl at Bovada Zone there is a 2 table limit.

poker hands are independent events, there is no such thing as predicting how the cards are running that is rigtard talk

chuG · May 1, 2014

SwiftHax said:
Hmmm... I don't know if that's such a good idea. Why not buy in for the max at both tables? Are you playing with scared money?

I open 4 tables of Zoom, buy-in for 100BBs and have auto top-up on. Once I'm close to 200BB, I close that table and open up a new one. It reminds me when I won a huge pot against a guy with 300BB or something. He raised preflop, got 3-bet by the button, I 4-bet with QQ, he calls, button shoves for around 60BB. I tank his shove to keep the deep fish in the pot. He actually calls that. I shove the flop and get called by 23 (pair of deuces) Seems like he won a nice pot before.

Do you monitor whether or not your auto-rebuys have gone over more than 100BB?

On the monster pot note, something that happened today was, I had 300BB and the villian was 300BB+ (me covered) I flop a set and he flops two pair. 600BB in the pot and he rivers a full house. Can you imagine what profanities my neighbours heard?

Cafeman · May 1, 2014

dj11 said:
Invariably, at the start of every session there are things I need to learn. Like am I in the right frame of mind, and are the cards coming reasonably fair or better?

Seriously dj? Really? How long have you been on here now?

dj11 · May 1, 2014

Cafeman said:
Seriously dj? Really? How long have you been on here now?

I am not a bot.

At the start of every session, I am unsure of my state of mind, yes seriously. And I have been here long enough to learn that it is me playing and not some delusional version of me. Of course I like to think I am the greatest, and I have had my moments, but I know that I DO NOT ALWAYS bring even my 'B' game, and I won't find out for 1/2 hour at least.

And then of course every hand is a perfectly random event. But how I react to a series of perfectly random events goes to my state of mind.

If things were as rosy and predictable as several might suggest, the game would be solved.

psy0nyd3 · May 2, 2014

Not to hijack your thread even more but I have noticed that I tend to play a lot better with a 50 BB stack as well. As soon as I build enough that I am comfortable bringing in 75 BB or 100 bb then I tend to **** up and start spewing left and right. Its also not just that I am better at making the shallow stack decisions, because when I have brought in 50 BB and accrue a semi large 200+ BB stack I seem to (for the most part) play fine. So its not just as simple as I don't know how to play with a larger stack, maybe its how others react to you.

My conclusion is this(Though this does not apply to zoom poker at all, which is kind of the topic but I'll let that go for now as I don't play on Bovada): At first people are more scared of stealing against you because you are shallow with a much lower VPIP than a maniac. Then when you're around 100-200 BB they have already seen you gobble up chips so they are less scared to try to steal against you. Once you've got a super stack people expect good plays from you unless they've seen you act crazy and get lucky and you get to re steal from them more often. I think I missed the mark and twisted my thoughts back around on themselves, like usual, ah well.

duggs · May 2, 2014

dj11 said:
I am not a bot.

At the start of every session, I am unsure of my state of mind, yes seriously. And I have been here long enough to learn that it is me playing and not some delusional version of me. Of course I like to think I am the greatest, and I have had my moments, but I know that I DO NOT ALWAYS bring even my 'B' game, and I won't find out for 1/2 hour at least.

And then of course every hand is a perfectly random event. But how I react to a series of perfectly random events goes to my state of mind.

If things were as rosy and predictable as several might suggest, the game would be solved.

Your mental game issues and fundamental lack of understanding of variance have zero relevance to why the game isn't solved

chuG · May 2, 2014

psy0nyd3 said:
Not to hijack your thread even more but I have noticed that I tend to play a lot better with a 50 BB stack as well. As soon as I build enough that I am comfortable bringing in 75 BB or 100 bb then I tend to **** up and start spewing left and right. Its also not just that I am better at making the shallow stack decisions, because when I have brought in 50 BB and accrue a semi large 200+ BB stack I seem to (for the most part) play fine. So its not just as simple as I don't know how to play with a larger stack, maybe its how others react to you.

My conclusion is this(Though this does not apply to zoom poker at all, which is kind of the topic but I'll let that go for now as I don't play on Bovada): At first people are more scared of stealing against you because you are shallow with a much lower VPIP than a maniac. Then when you're around 100-200 BB they have already seen you gobble up chips so they are less scared to try to steal against you. Once you've got a super stack people expect good plays from you unless they've seen you act crazy and get lucky and you get to re steal from them more often. I think I missed the mark and twisted my thoughts back around on themselves, like usual, ah well.

Apart from the hand I post earlier on this thread, big pots with big stacks rarely happen(Or so it seems to me). No body wants to get all there chips in with you because they give you too much credit. Now if you have the nuts with 50BB a 150BB will be more inclined raise you all in when you have the nuts. That same guy with 150BB will not do the same if you have 300BB.

LD1977 · May 2, 2014

I have found on several occasions that 2 competent players with big stack (200bb+) on the same table tend to really freeze each other and reduce the action due to mutual cautiousness. Effective stack if the only one that matters so 200bb vs 600bb plays the same way.

On the other hand, having a big stacked fish on the table who is on a run and is feeling invincible is extremely profitable situation, especially if you have position on him.

PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed)

Button ($24.65)
SB ($25)
BB ($25)
UTG ($53.46) - Whale.
UTG+1 ($156.32) - Competent player!
Hero (MP1) ($46.14)
MP2 ($13.10)
MP3 ($28.06)
CO ($24.80)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q

, Q

UTG raises to $0.75, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.60, 6 folds, UTG calls $1.85

Flop: ($5.55) 6

, 2

, 10

(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $2.50, UTG raises to $5.50, Hero raises to $25.87, UTG raises to $50.86 (All-In), Hero calls $17.67 (All-In)

Turn: ($92.63) 4

(2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($92.63) K

(2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $92.63 | Rake: $2

The guy runs 69/19 and is feeling frisky. (I don't normally stack off overpairs for 184bb on the flop vs a checkraise.)

Results below:
UTG had 5

, 10

(one pair, tens).
Hero had Q

, Q

(one pair, Queens).
Outcome: Hero won $90.63

Outrageous Stack discussion

dj11

Legend

micromachine

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SwiftHax

Rock Star

dj11

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SeaRun

Visionary

chuG

Rock Star

Cafeman

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Arjonius

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duggs

Killing me softly

JohnBoyWWFC

Grindddddd

dj11

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psy0nyd3

Visionary

duggs

Killing me softly

SwiftHax

Rock Star

dj11

Legend

dj11

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duggs

Killing me softly

duggs

Killing me softly

chuG

Rock Star

Cafeman

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dj11

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psy0nyd3

Visionary

duggs

Killing me softly

chuG

Rock Star

LD1977

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