Online Tells

Any thoughts on online tells. I play a lot of limit, and it seems a good check raise can lead to a longer time for my opponent to react. From a lot of hands played it seems like hesitation in limit is a sign of weakness online.

Possibly, but I would still keep in mind that you are seeing false tells, too.

I think the most common one that I see are the players with the nuts taking a very long time to make a decision, as if they are agonizing what to do with their cards, and then going all-in as their time is just about to expire.

The general rule, both live and online, is that out of the ordinary hesitation followed by a call is often weakness, while out of the ordinary hesitation followed by a raise is often strength.

These are only very general rules though, and they need to be adapted to specific opponents. Online also has connection speed issues (especially for those of us with third-world internet infrastructure) - are they really hesitating, or are they just lagged?

Hesitation can be anything. Most people who are truly VERY weak tend to have auto check/fold. If they hesitate they probably have a marginal hand, and not a true bluff. keep that in mind..

online i dont believe in tells that much. yeah hesitated or not. can have so many reasons. best thing is to watch the other players. and i really dont think that check-raise is a move that good.

I think the hesitation thing is correct. I've just thought about what I do and I usually do hesitate and check with marginal hands or hesitate and raise with strong hands..usually because I'm trying to decide to put someone else all in or just value raise to keep them in the pot. I'll have to change that up and take the same amount of time for each decision.

I love this topic!

The first thing I would submit is that I assume you at least have something worth playing before you even start considering the tells. The rest is just watching the styles and making the most informed play or knowing when not to make a play at all.

If you plan on using tells there's a few things you have to consider. First you need to consider that ~ALL~ true tells are actions of habit. False tells and unintentional actions are not tells but instead just tactics or no count variables to the play itself.

Online players play a lot, which means they get into rhythms and habits pretty fast. Only once you establish a picture of what you think is their normal habits are can you move on to playing that tell that deviates from the norm. Identifying habits from betting patterns is a huge advantage in online poker: stalling the bet, calling or raising, and size of the bet in either pot limit or no limit can all give distinct tells to a specific player. Pay attention, you don't want to be clueless about the very fact that they have deviated from their norm. Whether your opponent hesitated or raised with a crisp timing, you may have just seen the tell that gave it away.

One more point before I move on........

I find that most tells result in opponents having the goods. And I find that works to my advantage more than any other point in identifying the tells. However, if you ever find yourself having to make a call based on your opponent's tell, make sure you are correctly identifying that tell. Don't 'think' he busted his flush draw................ know he did!

One thing you might not have thought about is people playing multiple games at the same time...it might take a couple of seconds to get to the right one and see just what you did...but I agree, hesitation means your opponent has something you might not want to see.

There is an interesting article about online timing tells by Taylor Caby, a fairly prominent online pro located here [http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/pro-tip/TaylorCaby/162].

I'm not sure I completely agree with him, but he has made a ton of money playing online and I have not, so I will bow to his expertise.

Hesitating really means nothing online, you also have people like me that enjoy playing 2-4 tables at once. So when your making a tough decision or just dealing with another table, you may click back to the other hand a few seconds before the timer runs out.

Online, tells you barely anything. The only thing, in my opinion, that you can tell from online playing is the way people bet and if they like to play tight, aggressive, etc. Helps you in the long run at tables but not the first 10 or so hands.

Seriously. the best tells, live or online are betting patterns.

Most tells only direct you to what's known as the 'Read' of an opponent. Tells should not be used as the only determination of play. Instead it should be tied together with other information. Then it can help you make a more informed decision of how to play next. Try to make the goal of tells to be: knowing when to fold. And try to let other factors like the cards, position, odds, and outs tell you when to raise.

As I said earlier, "~ALL~ true tells are actions of habit." Online players tend to go on autopilot fairly regular. So you first need to correctly identify the norm before you can discern what is different or has changed. Don't worry about trying to get every read on every person at the table. But If the player is worth enough to start looking at the tells, he likely only plays a few hands and not very often. You REALLY need to give more attention to watching for the changes in those behaviors before making decisions about their reasons for a recent play. That takes time and information, and the more you have of each, the better off you are.

So how do you identify the tells? First try to consider everything the player has influence on in the world of online poker. Then consider how often they actually interact with that part of the game in order to rank the importance of that difference or change. Remember, it's only a tell if they change it and you are able become aware of the change.

A few things you may want to consider below for online poker.

User ID
This is probably the weakest tell to identify, since the player picks that ID one time. But since it was directly influenced by the player, it becomes part of the norm for the player. Of course to identify the change, you would need to know that player fairly well already, or at least enough to get a statement of the change during chat.

Don't get hung up on the fact that they chose an ID of, "Fishy-fishy_fish_fish," 2 years ago, as a tell. While there could be some distinctions to the way that player plays, I wouldn't say that something you did 2 years ago would be a correct portrait of how you are in the current game. So time of the change really matters with this passive tell.

Avatars
Not as weak as the User ID tell because players can change the avatar without needing to change account status and user name. So this tell is still fairly weak. However, since it's directly influenced by the player, it can be changed. If you are able to find that the avatar recently changed. Ask why. The answer could give some insight to the player's current state of mind. But, just as identifying the change of the User ID, the answer is mostly a passive tell best used to gain an overall read on your opponent.

Bankroll
This is a much better tell than the past two, but not nearly as strong as some other tells. This is a yet another passive tell. To work this read you need to get a read on that player's goals. You can do this from chat. But you also need to know where they are in that goal. You can use that tell to figure out how they may want to play in a certain style. You also can track bankrolls with the use of HUDs or just seeing the player keeps reloading or re-buys. Otherwise used as a factor to identifying your opponent's current tilt.

If the player has been playing loose before a loss of a big hand, he might focus for sake of his goals, or change to an all-in-monster. Make sure you catch the changes in betting patterns before moving on this tell.

Chatbox
Now we are talking. This is a very much a more direct tell than any of the others listed before. But it's still a passive tell best used for making a good read. Because it is influenced more than any other action before this. This can also be a very direct tell for some. Try to think of the different types of chat you see. Then try to discern any change of that norm.

Since not all players use the chatbox, this action is easier to identify a change in and thus easier to identify the tell. But it's still not a tell until you get a change from the norm.

Key changes in chat are answered with these questions:
When did it start?
How long did it last?
When did it stop?
And What did they have during those changes?

A few attitudes you may want to pay attention to:

Chatterbox: They seem to talk constantly. If they get caught up in a conversation they may forget to pay attention, unless it looks instantly good. The change usually comes when they stop talking either by a big hand or some other distraction. This can also be a tell if they go from being quite to instant chatter.

Gloating: Hind sight is always 20/20. These guys like to talk about the same win for three hands beyond the hand they won. The change in these are a bit more subtle than most, because they don't always have that hand to talk about. But some like to talk after getting a river chased flush like they meant to do it that way. That could identify other tells of how they acted during the hand. And that knowledge works really works well with identifying betting patterns.

Professor of Cards: Lessons for free? Or are they trying to convince you? These are almost always players who think they are way better than they really are, As a result they play considerably worse when losing than when winning. Again the change usually shows itself when they stop talking.

Ranting: Something is an injustice to them. A good person to target while they are on this 'fit'. These guys think you are cheating. making them play almost anything to get it out of their system. The good thing is that these players usually select a target. Try not to be that target, but certainly identify the target of their aggression as they maybe responding with their own tells.

Whining: Almost the same as ranting, but they think the world is out to make to get them and it was destiny. The players players that demonstrate those 'Poor-Me' symptoms, are just screaming, "I don't have the patience anymore!" This again is only helpful if you are able to correctly identify their betting patterns first.

Multitaskers: They might be changing a diaper, or sending text through IM or phone. These players are temporarily out of service for poker. Be glad they told you this before they decide to raise pre-flop. The idea is that they are probably going to have their focus elsewhere and only do this if they have good on their word. But it's usually hard to consider this a long-term tell. As most will slip back into their game without telling you through chat. Knowing their betting patterns is key to catching this.

Eaters: Do you really think they would pay attention to the game unless it was good? Again, at least they told you about it first. This tell works best when paired with other reads and if conditions are good, the table can rake a pot or two from this guy. But don't expect it to last forever before they just shutdown to autopilot again to reserve their focus back to eating.

Muti Table Players: These guys probably are pretty good at play on multi-table games. The difference is that they show their norm better than most as they are more likely to be on autopilot. They don't talk much, but if you do happen get one to tell you, you already know they have to sit forward just to watch and listen harder than others. Chose your spot with these guys more wisely, but don't be afraid to combine betting pasterns with this tell as it pays off more than most other tells.

***Considering not using the chat box yourself?
That's fine, if you think you can get these answers with out encouraging your opponents to talk. But most tells, besides betting patterns, need something to identify them and pull them out. And conversation is usually the easiest option for that purpose. Just don't leave too much of yourself out there.

Betting Patterns
This is where the money is! This is the most influenced part of the game by any one opponent! And you shouldn't even consider using the information from any other tell without having a good thumb on your opponent's betting patterns first. With HUDs or just a good attention to details, you can pick up changes and gain a good read on your opponent from betting patterns. Again, make sure you have a good read on the norm before you try to discern the change to identify the tell.

A few betting patterns that can change are:

Speed of the bet: The norm could be they play clean and crisp or just as it could be that they hesitate for 2 or 3 seconds from multi-table play. Be sure you clearly identify the change from the norm. If you wait long enough, they WILL show a pattern. And remember that in online poker you have the hidden variables of not being there with your opponent. He could just be answering the door or the pizza might have just arrived. (see Multitaskers above)

Call or Raise: The norm could be that given the flop nuts the opponent always calls. Or maybe your opponent will constantly raise pre-flop from the front position. Determine the norm by asking yourself other common factors that may choose your opponents course of action. Don't forget to consider position and odds for your opponent as well . Your opponent could be trying to target someone. Again, the idea is to identify the norm before moving on to identifying the change.

Size of bets: Your opponent's norm in this case could be that they always raise 2 times the blinds. Or they hit the auto raise button with big hands. They may pot and half pot raise or simply place table minimum. Whatever it is, it will either be the norm or changed for a reason. Ask yourself why it changed. Then ask what they had the last time it changed, and then the time before that.


Try to rely on the change from the norm, and don't focus completely on the passive reasons alone. Once you know it is a change from the norm, make sure you know what they had when it happened last time and the time before to correctly identify it as a tell.

Em that is most excellent, well said. I would only add, we peeps online have a great advantage over a random live game: In some cases, we have years to interact and observe with some playahs. We can trak people like crazy in cyberspace. And tells are everywhere.

I gont generally look for tells online because they can be so misleading although its a must for live play

i wouldnt try using hesitation as a tell online, live it may be a better tell, but like many people above me said it could just be lag. but on the other hand i guess you could possibly pick up a tell on online hesitation if you play at table with somone long enough to pick up on their tendencies and such but even then it could still be lag

I really like the tell which you mentioned that if a chaterbox stop chatting he maybe has hit a good hand or the one with eaters, they ofc would be focused on their pizzas unless they have monster.

sometimes i stall to give a false tell online. Also, often if a player tanks and raises they usually have the goods.

I would check the bankroll, common sense in the position.. Are they going all in short handed late in the tourney right after the flop... They could be trying to steal.. Hesitation depends on the player .. It can be used both ways.. Either time to make a decision or faking the nuts..

I agree somewhat about stalling. But what if he is multi-tabling and trying to type a bet into the allotted area. Ive had the "15 secs thing" go a couple times when im typing in my bet

time tells are one of the best ways obviously. that and you can keep online notes on the players which is always nice

hello I think that limit poker can be a more challenging than no limit because you cant run off the chasers when you have the best starting hand, Im learning still...good luck at the tables. Tina

bad link

i'd be careful with looking into tells online and taking them too seriously. there are way too many variables online and the biggest problem is you can't actually know what they are doing/feeling. hesitation can also be simply from a slow connection or multitabling...

From my experience someone who "hollywoods" and shoves all in usually has the nuts. like 99% of the time. The other 1 percent is the donk who shoves his busted draw into your fullhouse.

Freaking Full Tilt!!! Nothing is ever as easy as it should be.

Okay, try this one: [http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/pro-tips-archive.php#]

Once you get there, click on "All Pro Tips" and scroll down through the list to #162.

gj Emrald nice write up.

Thanks- some good info there!

Wow, there is some great information here. I think that a lot of it is part of your subconscience game. Nice to have it in this light, though. Thank you.

The only "tell" I trust is auto check.

quite few tells online, but betting patterns like said Emrald can be useful
But I prefer visible tells, so online...

Pick up/ buy the book "Beyond Tells" It really goes into the deep psychology behind poker. Its great, im currently reading it.

I would like to agree with you on this one, but too many ppl apologize or don't for tending to children, watching tv or even cooking dinner while playing so it is impossible to know what a hesitation online really is. They could be refreshing there coffee.

Or they are playing just multitables and are in a hand at the other table...


Great work Emrald Onyxx!!!

Saludos

i think emerald onyxx wrote some very great info,
and i really think tells are hard to get online, and the hesitation theory really shouldnt be used- way way too many distractions and multitaskings going on, as well as connection issues.
i usually only watch for donk, aggressive or tight play in a player and play them accordingly, people who all in preflop regularly i will only call if i can afford to lose it and i have 2 good cards,also make them pay when you got something half good and you figure they are chasin(again)
aggressors always bet preflop and pot bets from there, they steal alot, but you just have to wait for the nutz, show weakness, let them push you all in, or the check raise/re raise when you bluff- which i never like to do much of- meaning you know they are just pushing to buy the pot, so do a stupid high reraise- so they think you finally hit a hand and they usually fold,
and the tight players dont (usually)play crap, chase or bluff. if they are playing and betting- be careful
im sure thers more player types, but just knowing these three give me all the tell i need (i think?)

Always difficult with online tells unless they do the same thing alot.

to avoid people picking up on your online tells take the same amount of time every time you check or raise.

Better indications are betting patterns.