Online Loose Players

#1 22nd December 2006, 6:39 AM

Ran into a problem today. For 2 SNGs I ended up in 2nd place. Then I hit a bad turn and went 3 straight placing at 4 or lower.

The problem in two of the games was the same. In the first game, I ran into 3 players that were stealing blinds with All-Ins preflop at times where I would have no hand (7c 2d for instance). I was getting blinded away while the guys just kept exchanging the pots. The lower chip stack would go All-In and the higher stack would call. The Lower stack wins so chips just kept moving around table. Finally I was at the inflection point and I had a decent hand - nothing great (8 8) and was beaten.

Second game - same thing...but with only 2 very loose players. Same story. Blinded down until I had to go All-In. Everytime I'd bet a decent (not great) hand - I'd get reraised w/ an All-In. 2 choices - either hope I draw out to beat him, or fold and give him my blind and raise. If I didn't raise, he'd still go All-In and steal the blinds. Everytime I had decent hand to call, I'd get beaten at showdown or knew I was beat on flop and had to lay it down.

How do you win against these types of players? I felt like it was almost a play money table.

It was at 3.40 buy in SNGs. I would like to move up and get into games w/ more serious players - but my bankroll (and wife) won't support it.

BTW: I play at PokerStars - maybe that's the problem?

LATE at night, I do a lot better...so maybe I'm playing younger kids during the day. I'd watch a couple of these guys get knocked out and thought maybe that slow the play down some - NOPE. Now someone just doubled up and starts it over again.

I just can't see the point in going All-In just to steal blinds. If All-In gets others to fold, so would a 3/4 or pot size bet. Why risk your tourney life preflop to steal blinds?

Should I just take more chances and call these guys w/ a less than stellar hand (high pair)? Seems like that would make a lot of short tourneys.

If PokerStars is the problem - any recommendations on sites w/ lower stakes where players still play somewhat rationally?

#2 22nd December 2006, 6:56 AM

I'm pretty sure you will find these people at each site if you're playing the low limits... These are the kind of people you want in the 10 man SNG's.. The crazy ones that will risk all of their chips with less then great hands.. Just let them donk themselves out and take advantage when you have a good hand.

Patience is all you need, I find in the 10 man 3.40 SNG's all I need is one pot then I could fold to top 3, maybe making one or two moves around the bubble..

Playing more loose is not what you want to do, wait on them good hands and win a few big pots off the loose players. Then just be really patient till the guys donk off untill top 3...You could try going to the $5.00 SNG's at stars, they are a bit better since they are not turbo's, gives you more time to wait on good hands.. But I believe the turbo's give you enough time to still play a tight aggressive game.

#3 22nd December 2006, 7:08 AM

Thanks for the help.

Been playing for a while - but live games. Online were just freerolls until here recently.

Anyway - thanks for reassuring me on something I know already. I go on Tilt when I get on a bad streak and get taken by the All-Ins.

Thanks again!!!

#4 22nd December 2006, 7:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FinalTable

Thanks for the help.

Been playing for a while - but live games. Online were just freerolls until here recently.

Anyway - thanks for reassuring me on something I know already. I go on Tilt when I get on a bad streak and get taken by the All-Ins.

Thanks again!!!

You're welcome mate, sorry I couldn't be anymore help.. Perhaps some of the other smarter members could help you out Lots of poker genius' here... Welcome to the forum btw, hope you stick around.

#5 22nd December 2006, 8:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FinalTable

Ran into a problem today. For 2 SNGs I ended up in 2nd place. Then I hit a bad turn and went 3 straight placing at 4 or lower.

The problem in two of the games was the same. In the first game, I ran into 3 players that were stealing blinds with All-Ins preflop at times where I would have no hand (7c 2d for instance). I was getting blinded away while the guys just kept exchanging the pots. The lower chip stack would go All-In and the higher stack would call. The Lower stack wins so chips just kept moving around table. Finally I was at the inflection point and I had a decent hand - nothing great (8 8) and was beaten.

Second game - same thing...but with only 2 very loose players. Same story. Blinded down until I had to go All-In. Everytime I'd bet a decent (not great) hand - I'd get reraised w/ an All-In. 2 choices - either hope I draw out to beat him, or fold and give him my blind and raise. If I didn't raise, he'd still go All-In and steal the blinds. Everytime I had decent hand to call, I'd get beaten at showdown or knew I was beat on flop and had to lay it down.

How do you win against these types of players? I felt like it was almost a play money table.

It was at 3.40 buy in SNGs. I would like to move up and get into games w/ more serious players - but my bankroll (and wife) won't support it.

BTW: I play at PokerStars - maybe that's the problem?

LATE at night, I do a lot better...so maybe I'm playing younger kids during the day. I'd watch a couple of these guys get knocked out and thought maybe that slow the play down some - NOPE. Now someone just doubled up and starts it over again.

I just can't see the point in going All-In just to steal blinds. If All-In gets others to fold, so would a 3/4 or pot size bet. Why risk your tourney life preflop to steal blinds?

Should I just take more chances and call these guys w/ a less than stellar hand (high pair)? Seems like that would make a lot of short tourneys.

If PokerStars is the problem - any recommendations on sites w/ lower stakes where players still play somewhat rationally?

I don't like playing the 3.40 as it is a turbo, and prefer the 5.50.
If your a patient player, the 5.50 will pay you more than not if your a TAG player.
At times I can sit and play 4-5 $5.50 1 table SnGs (not at the same time and wouldn't recommend it)and come ITM 3 out of 5 times.
Hope this helps.

#6 22nd December 2006, 9:34 AM

I agree with both Xife and Shine.

Avoid Turbo SNGs like the plague, they encourage this kind of wild play. Personally, I study the blind structures at the various sites (they differ quite a lot) and focus most of my SNG effort on the sites where the levels advance more slowly. I can`t comment on Stars because I don`t play there but Ultimate, Absolute and Bodog are ok in this respect.

In the early levels play premium hands only (relaxing your requirements a little from LP). As Xife says, you only need to win one good pot to be well placed. Don`t go into an all-in unless you have the nuts.

As the bubble approaches, loosen up some and start stealing blinds. Other players are generally scared of going out at this point and won`t challenge you, especially because they will think you are a rock by now and must be holding a monster.

Once in the money, change gears again and go for the win by playing LAG. Aim to finish 1st or 3rd, never 2nd.

#7 22nd December 2006, 9:54 AM

Quote:

Avoid Turbo SNGs like the plague, they encourage this kind of wild play. Personally, I study the blind structures at the various sites (they differ quite a lot) and focus most of my SNG effort on the sites where the levels advance more slowly. I can`t comment on Stars because I don`t play there but Ultimate, Absolute and Bodog are ok in this respect.

I dissagree, and here is why.. The turbo's at star's are not that fast... And it incourages the wild play as you said which is exactly what you are looking for...People to donk out early (I see lots of people donking out with AJ, A10, etc..) If you pick up AA or KK you're almost gaurenteed to get a call.. (Even if u all in preflop) and can coast into top 3.. The best part about it is if you play very tight, you will 9 outta 10 times make it to top 3 (Not exact stats, don't qoute me on that.... obviously if your cards are REALLY dry you wont make it) And the best part is when there is 4-5 left you can push people around since they view you as a tight player...

Even tho it is a 'turbo' at pokerstars you DO have enough time to play it really tight...

Obviously sites have different speeds on their blinds, but having played a lot of the 3.40 at stars, I can tell you a TAG style works just as good in a turbo, if not better.. then a normal match... Until you run into a turbo game with some decent players

Edit - I just played a 3.40 Turbo and finished in second place.. I don't think I won one pot.. Granted we had a wild man that went in every hand and knocked everyone out for me.... So I didn't have to play one (Was also getting really bad cards... ) Had a shot at first but my KJ fell to the mighty 7,3 in HU

#8 22nd December 2006, 10:49 AM

Yeah, turbo's have a lot more luck than the slower sng's, but playing tight still seems enough to win. I play the $6 turbo on empirepoker and as Xife says a single win is enough to get you to the top 3 just playing tight.

I can normally spot the people who'll make it to the final 3 - they're the only ones on the entire table playing tight! And when I say tight, I mean it, as Xife says the top 3 players will often win a single pot and then sit folding all but the very best hands. I've seen someone make 3rd place with just a single win!

What I will say is that some times you just can't beat the game. If you've got that many players doing that in a turbo, it really does go down to luck not skill. Skill's getting you placed in the top 5, but if the play is that bad just accept that sometimes being better isn't enough.

As I've read in so many articles, table selection is a big part of making a profit.

However, if you're determined, it may be possible to win on these tables. Just make sure you don't loose patience with their all-ins. Make sure you spot who is and isn't calling all in, make particular notes if any of them are capable of folding - these are the people you'll need to target with your blind steals. Be patient, wait for the good hands, fold the small blind with bad hands (saves your chips & gives a tigher image), and don't start any pot you're not prepared to go all the way with.

Against dumb opponents your only defence is to play incredibly tight and aggressive. Use their own aggression against them and get them to double you up.

Also, don't worry too much if you go out to a bad beat - a bad beat means you got *their* cash in while *you* were ahead. You may experience a few of these, but in the long run they'll be doubling you up, which gives you a very good chance at sitting tight & aiming for the final 3.

Myx

#9 22nd December 2006, 11:00 AM

On a pretty hot streak at them 3.40 turbo's.. Decided to play them again for memories... placed pretty good for the night

#10 22nd December 2006, 11:11 AM

1) Don't get disheartened at a streak of 3 out of the money - that sort of run is not uncommon at all. I'm a winning player (~16%ROI) and have had runs of ~10 out of the money before through no real fault of my own (perhaps 1 out of the 10 might be due to a -EV tilt shove or something, but still, that's not huge).

2) I agree you should avoid turbos, not because 'they encourage wild play' (you want wild play, it's where your profit comes from), but because you seem to have a limited understanding of effective push/fold strategy (quote "I just can't see the point in going All-In just to steal blinds. If All-In gets others to fold, so would a 3/4 or pot size bet. Why risk your tourney life preflop to steal blinds?"), and the turbos are all about effective push/fold play once the blinds get sufficiently high.

It's not incredibly unusual for me to play a turbo and fold everything until we hit 50/100 or even 75/150 blinds. I don't mind this as I can play near-optimal push-fold in the endgame, so as long as I'm alive at 75/150 I know I have a shot. The thing is, at the lower limits most people play 'backwards'. They play very loose early on and will often stack off with something like K9 vs AK on a Kxx flop, but if they do survive they will become increasingly tight looking to 'cling on' into the money and not commit any chips without a huge hand.

#11 22nd December 2006, 2:52 PM

Thanks for the advice.

Got back into it last night. Tightened up and got off Tilt. I think that was my problem - just playing cards I knew were mediocre (10 10) just to challenge the All-Ins. Mistake.

I did exactly what was suggested - won 1 pot early and then anther later on. Folded most until top 3 and then took out No 3 with a check raise when I had the nuts. He went all in and I had him.

Then lost heads up (chip lead had 10K to my 3K).

Thanks again. I'm learning. I've been playing for a while in free rolls and live for about a year. But just on gut feel. Just now trying to get 'good' and learn the nuances and math behind the game. Read couple of books and reading here and there. Has really helped...

#12 22nd December 2006, 3:51 PM

I had worse day too. After placing in 5 5$ sit n gos, decided to try a 10$ one. Did very well, but came out 3rd when i was with another big stack, and i stupidly went all in while there was one guy with barely 2 bbs in his stack. I didnt even think. That stayed on my mind and i ended up losing like six sit n gos in a row Won a tropical freeroll though lol.

Good to know you got off your tilt. Im gonna try to today. But i feel kinda confused and unsure of my game.

#13 22nd December 2006, 4:30 PM

btw, it may be true that regular as opposed to turbo is better for you. It is for me.

But itd be wrong to think higher limit would make it easier for you 2 play your regular poker.

I think you should get used to the lower ones before you move up (an advice i didnt take lol)

#14 22nd December 2006, 8:31 PM

Thanks - what's the diff between the Turbos and the non-Turbos?

#15 22nd December 2006, 9:03 PM

In turbos the blinds go up faster. Half the amount of time they go up in regular. So most players feel like they should get as much as they can quick, and others will be blinded down quick, which leads to a bunch of freeroll-like allins. Not that bad but you get the picture

#16 22nd December 2006, 9:07 PM

Ahhhh - never realized.

Thanks - big help.

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Play Texas Hold'em Online Poker \| Online Loose Players
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