Originally Posted by orangepeeleo

No your not ALWAYS 3betting them, its villain dependant as is everything, but in general with a big hand and 100bb stacks you should be building a pot to setup a pot sized shove on the turn or river, fish leaks at the micros are calling too much oop and playing shit post flop, you've got to exploit this and make them do it as often as possible.

I really hate playing AA/KK any further than the flop, you are just asking for suckouts aren't you? If you wait until the turn or river to shove you are often going to be behind.

Maybe I am really missing something here but nothing has convinced me yet that this is a terrible strategy to use sometimes. I wasn't suggesting doing this every time we get premium pair, more like using it to mix things up a bit instead of auto 3-betting every time.

In terms of value, do the times they hit a set or two pair really outweigh the times they call with a worse TPTK/TPGK type hand like in the second one? I wouldn't think so. Granted that maybe it's close enough not to make it worth it though.

There are 3 outcomes to playing a hand like that, villain folds and you win 20bb, villain calls with a shit hand and you stack him, villain calls with a hand that crushes you and you get stacked, the latter two will happen a small % of the time and happen about as much as each other, the most common occurrence though will be you folding out worse hands and losing that extra value from even 1 more street.

Your being so results orientated here, you need to milk fish for all they're worth, so what if you have to fold the turn sometimes after getting baluga'd, you just made him put money in on the flop when behind and he's shit enough to let you know when your beat, how is that a bad thing?

Originally Posted by orangepeeleo

There are 3 outcomes to playing a hand like that, villain folds and you win 20bb, villain calls with a shit hand and you stack him, villain calls with a hand that crushes you and you get stacked, the latter two will happen a small % of the time and happen about as much as each other, the most common occurrence though will be you folding out worse hands and losing that extra value from even 1 more street.

Your being so results orientated here, you need to milk fish for all they're worth, so what if you have to fold the turn sometimes after getting baluga'd, you just made him put money in on the flop when behind and he's shit enough to let you know when your beat, how is that a bad thing?

Nicely explained. Totally agree that I will often miss value by shoving the flop when I have premium pairs. However, I don't really agree with getting my whole stack in on a later street, maybe on the turn, but not the river. Seems like you give too much opportunity to draw.

So if they just keep calling, you would suggest doing something like 3/4 pot on flop then 2/3 pot on turn and river? And if they outdraw you then so be it? In a 3bet pot this kind of betting will pretty much get entire 100BB stacks in by the river.

Well you have to re-evaluate each street depending on how the villain plays, the texture of the flop, the turn and river cards etc.
Theres nothing wrong with checking back a street if you think the boards turned bad or something, but this is where putting a villain on a range and betting to maximise value from that range comes into play

Originally Posted by micromachine

something like 3/4 pot on flop then 2/3 pot on turn and river? And if they outdraw you then so be it?

That's probably about my general bet sizing, important to note though that if they outdraw you it'll be blatantly obvious in some way, i.e. the texture of the board or the usual baluga on the turn lol

You have position though so don't be afraid of being outdrawn, you can always check a street back or bet smaller with the intention of bet folding.

In a 3bet pot this kind of betting will pretty much get entire 100BB stacks in by the river.

Thats the idea!

In a 3bet pot with 100bb effective stacks you should be able to get in comfortably by the turn.

Say you 3bet to 12bb and get one caller. The pot is 26.5bb preflop and you have 88bb left.
If you bet 21bb on the flop and get called the pot will be 68.5bb and you'll have 67bb left for a turn shove that's slightly less than pot.

Plan your hands and use your bet sizing to execute that plan.

Originally Posted by WVHillbilly

In a 3bet pot with 100bb effective stacks you should be able to get in comfortably by the turn.

Right, without obvious draws on the board I would be happy to put an entire 100BB stack in by the (turn at the latest) with AA or KK. I can see that 3betting has a major advantage here in that it makes it possible by the turn with a PSB.

Normally I buy in for 150BB with auto top-up on, which is maybe affecting the way I am playing these hands. Do you think I would be better off buying in for 100BB with auto-top on, so I am not scared of getting my whole stack in on later streets with premium pairs? How can I adjust when playing deep stacked?

Originally Posted by micromachine

Right, without obvious draws on the board I would be happy to put an entire 100BB stack in by the (turn at the latest) with AA or KK.I don't understand that statement.You should be more willing to get it in with draws on the board.On a dry board with a villain willing to get it in increases the chances they beat one pair. I can see that 3betting has a major advantage here in that it makes it possible by the turn with a PSB.

Normally I buy in for 150BB with auto top-up on, which is maybe affecting the way I am playing these hands. Do you think I would be better off buying in for 100BB with auto-top on, so I am not scared of getting my whole stack in on later streets with premium pairs?If i were you i would just bi 100bb deep How can I adjust when playing deep stacked?

Just give 100bb a chance an work on your overall game.

Bad wording on my part JB, I meant without obvious/possible made draws (like a third suit on the turn, or a three suit flop)

Originally Posted by micromachine

I really hate playing AA/KK any further than the flop, you are just asking for suckouts aren't you? If you wait until the turn or river to shove you are often going to be behind.

Maybe I am really missing something here but nothing has convinced me yet that this is a terrible strategy to use sometimes. I wasn't suggesting doing this every time we get premium pair, more like using it to mix things up a bit instead of auto 3-betting every time.

In terms of value, do the times they hit a set or two pair really outweigh the times they call with a worse TPTK/TPGK type hand like in the second one? I wouldn't think so. Granted that maybe it's close enough not to make it worth it though.

this shows you arent thinking in ranges vs diff villian types your thinking like zomggg i has AA and dont want to lose a pot arrrrrrrrrrrr in!!

Can any of you guys tell me why there is such a big discrepancy between what PS shows as the average table VPIP, and what HM is showing as the average table VPIP? It's quite frustrating when PS is telling me that table Phaedra is running at 40% VPIP, for example, when in reality it is full of nits and HM reports 19%!

It would be to do with sample sizes im guessing...

Ok first should i be punishing the limpers with this hand?Thoughts on my raise size.Any thoughts on my cbet size?I believe it was way to much,because hijack either has a King or doesn't.

Merge $4.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 1532915
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

SB: $2.89
BB: $2.80
UTG: $3.59
MP: $4.54
Hero (CO): $4.63
BTN: $1.84

Pre Flop: ($0.06) Hero is CO with 9 ♦ T ♦
UTG calls $0.04, MP calls $0.04, Hero raises to $0.24, 4 folds, MP calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.58) 2 ♥ K ♣ 9 ♠ (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $0.44

I like.

Originally Posted by JOEBOB69

Ok first should i be punishing the limpers with this hand?Thoughts on my raise size.Any thoughts on my cbet size?I believe it was way to much,because hijack either has a King or doesn't.

raise size is good, hand is also decent, no need to wait for much better. cbet size, now, i would make is a little smaller, as this is a dry board - perhaps .36, if not .32 even. i don't see many people folding to .44 who would not fold to .36...

Originally Posted by JOEBOB69

Ok first should i be punishing the limpers with this hand?Thoughts on my raise size.Any thoughts on my cbet size?I believe it was way to much,because hijack either has a King or doesn't.

Merge $4.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 1532915
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

SB: $2.89
BB: $2.80
UTG: $3.59
MP: $4.54
Hero (CO): $4.63
BTN: $1.84

Pre Flop: ($0.06) Hero is CO with 9 <font color='red'>♦</font> T <font color='red'>♦</font>
UTG calls $0.04, MP calls $0.04, Hero raises to $0.24, 4 folds, MP calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.58) 2 <font color='red'>♥</font> K <font color='black'>♣</font> 9 <font color='black'>♠</font> (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $0.44

I dont mind either flatting or ISO'ing, depends on blinds for me if they are fish I flat if regs I ISO.

as played I check back, our hand isnt strong enough to get value from weaker 9s or pairs, we have SD value and he may stab with air or Ax on turns.
If turn checks to us then I probs go for 2 streets on undercards, float 1 if he bets.

Originally Posted by Jurn8

I dont mind either flatting or ISO'ing, depends on blinds for me if they are fish I flat if regs I ISO.

as played I check back, our hand isnt strong enough to get value from weaker 9s or pairs, we have SD value and he may stab with air or Ax on turns.
If turn checks to us then I probs go for 2 streets on undercards, float 1 if he bets.

Different line of thinking than me.
1)There is dead money in the pot that belongs to me.
2)Can i not get value from 33-88?
3)There is so many bad turn cards that can come.That will leave me lost in the hand and give him the initiative on the turn.


I understand the thought of letting him bluff the turn with Ax or air on the turn.Just seems that line will leave me more prone to make a mistake in the hand.

Yeah the problem with not cbetting is that a lot of turn cards suck for our hand. I'd bet slightly smaller on the flop maybe (~.38 or .40) but that's pretty picky. I think we can still get calls from smaller pairs which should make up the bulk of his hands. He shouldn't really have any Kings in his limp/call range.

I dont think he calls flop with 33 - 88 but may call turn as he probs think we just have air.

there arent many turns which are terrible, an A or a Q and maybe a J, If they come and he donks then I just fold but if he checks then value bet but if its another brick I float.
I dont see much value being had from betting flop, I think the value comes from later in the hand.
Alternatively you could just bet 3 and turn our hand into a bluff?

A6s-A9s or A8o-A10o in the BB against a 30%-40% steal att vs BTN.What is our best play?Then same hands vs a SB steal att (same 30%-40%)?

whats fold to 3bet and cbet/turn cbet

We'll say f3bet is 65% cbet flop 80% cbet turn 60%,,, for both.

I was thinking check back flop when looking at the hand too. Even if a Q or J comes on the turn we then get a gutshot so I don't think there are many awful turn cards.

Anyone looking for more material to learn off, check the videos on this site. Splitsuit is a great teacher so i'd check his videos first:
http://www.thepokerbank.com/videos/

Originally Posted by JOEBOB69

A6s-A9s or A8o-A10o in the BB against a 30%-40% steal att vs BTN.What is our best play?Then same hands vs a SB steal att (same 30%-40%)?

Originally Posted by JOEBOB69

We'll say f3bet is 65% cbet flop 80% cbet turn 60%,,, for both.

I probs 3bet everything apart from ATo and A9s

I'd put it on only see from current level. My play for 2NL and 10NL are a mile apart and if someone was making decisions from my stats at 10NL for 2NL they'd be spewing money.

Is my 4bet about the right size?

Would it have been better to flat given that I have position and a nh?

PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($5.65)
SB ($5) 21/14, 6.5% 3-bet
BB ($5.21)
UTG ($6.41)
MP ($5.77)
Hero (CO) ($5)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K, A
2 folds, Hero bets $0.15, 1 fold, SB raises to $0.45, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.05, 1 fold

Total pot: $0.95 | Rake: $0

Results:
Hero didn't show K, A.
Outcome: Hero won $0.95

Originally Posted by micromachine

Is my 4bet about the right size?

Would it have been better to flat given that I have position and a nh?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($5.65)
SB ($5) 21/14, 6.5% 3-bet
BB ($5.21)
UTG ($6.41)
MP ($5.77)
Hero (CO) ($5)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K, A
2 folds, Hero bets $0.15, 1 fold, SB raises to $0.45, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.05, 1 fold

Total pot: $0.95 | Rake: $0

Results:
Hero didn't show K, A.
Outcome: Hero won $0.95

Im cool with flatting if your comfortable playing post, id make the 4bet a touch bigger to about 1.10 - 1.20 but thats nit picking, 2.5x roughly

If we were OTB, I flat there a ton (assuming no history).