OK, I'm gonna start a new strat thread for November

Thread for discussion of cash game strategy, posting hands and progress.

EVERYONE WELCOME

It would be great to hear from some new CC members who are playing micro stakes cash games, post any questions here!

I'll get my coat then

I think my call here was good, here are my calculations, please correct me if I'm wrong.

1) Pot-odds
Need to call $1.73 to win a $5.55 pot
5.55 / 1.73 = 3.2
Therefore the pot odds are 3.2-1

2) Odds against winning (assuming a T-high flush wins)
According to PT3, I have 30% chance of winning after the flop.
Therefore odds against winning are 7-3 (will lose 7 times for every 3 won)...
Which is the same as 2.3-1

So, as pot odds are higher than odds against winning, the call is good.

I pretty much knew I should call here when playing but didn't realize the odds were so good until working it out afterwards. Does anyone have a quick easy method for working out stuff like this in game?

PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($2.88)
Hero (Button) ($4.31)
SB ($2.19)
BB ($1.50)
UTG ($2.02)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 10, 9
UTG bets $0.08, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.08, 1 fold, BB calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.25) 6, Q, 2 (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $0.21, Hero calls $0.21, BB raises to $1.42 (All-In), UTG raises to $1.94 (All-In), Hero calls $1.73

Turn: ($5.55) 3 (3 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($5.55) A (3 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $5.55 | Rake: $0.27

Results:
Hero had 10, 9 (high card, Ace).
BB had 2, 3 (two pair, threes and twos).
UTG had K, K (one pair, Kings).
Outcome: BB won $4.29, UTG won $0.99

Would not be bad if you had Ax of d but this is a fold IMO.Most of the time in muti way pots on this flop villains will have set an the other at least K high draw.Also your on the button you prob should have raised flop.

Originally Posted by JOEBOB69

Would not be bad if you had Ax of d but this is a fold IMO.Most of the time in muti way pots on this flop villains will have set an the other at least K high draw.Also your on the button you prob should have raised flop.

That's true, the hands shown here were unusually bad.

Hypothetically, if one has over-pair and one has a set, I think I would still almost have the odds to call.

But if, as you say, I am up against a higher flush draw (likely) then I am screwed.

In general, do you think it is worth playing in these large pots where calling all-ins with a draw is slightly +EV? Or better just to wait until you have made hands like flopped sets to get your chips in?

Deff get it in there with Ax of D.Or if flop was Qd Jc 2d.Since you were on the button an had more info than the others this is a fold IMO.You can play draws agg but not when 2 villains are shoving etc.

I agree with Joebob. I prefer to be aggressive with draws rather than calling them. Up against 2 villains AI on the flop with just a bare flush draw (it wasn't even the NFD), I think (hope) I would fold close to 100%.

Originally Posted by micromachine

In general, do you think it is worth playing in these large pots where calling all-ins with a draw is slightly +EV? Or better just to wait until you have made hands like flopped sets to get your chips in?

If you think calling is +ev, and the only other option is folding (0 ev), you should always call.

The question is whether it is +ev to call at all.

The odds you're getting are really deceptive and pretty bad. Calling a shove with no fold equity on a pure draw, especially when someone can have a better one is nearly always -EV.

You could think of it this way: if UTG and BB got in a minraising war on the flop, giving you like a million:1 every bet, would you call every bet up to your entire stack because you were 'getting odds'?

Gonna put up a few interesting hands from last night, any comments on my play appreciated.

Hand 1: WA/WB situation, I checked the flop to keep his bluffs in...something I learn since joining CC

Hand 2: FLopped TPTK, so I bet the flop. I check the turn intentionally to keep the pot small and with the aim of getting a river bet from hands like KT and JT.

Hand 3: Wasn't sure about this one. I called the 3-bet hoping I would have an overpair or hit a set of jacks. I didn't, but shoved over his flop bet in the end because I thought that I would likely be ahead and had fold equity.

Hand 1:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($2.52)
BB ($1.70)
UTG ($2.02)
Hero (MP) ($2.87)
CO ($2.22)
Button ($2.89)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J, J
1 fold, Hero bets $0.06, 3 folds, BB calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.13) 6, K, 3 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($0.13) 2 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.08, BB raises to $0.18, Hero calls $0.10

River: ($0.49) 5 (2 players)
BB bets $0.35, Hero calls $0.35

Total pot: $1.19 | Rake: $0.05

Results:
BB had A, J (high card, Ace).
Hero had J, J (one pair, Jacks).
Outcome: Hero won $1.14

Hand 2:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (5 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($2.93)
SB ($2.12)
Hero (BB) ($3.03)
UTG ($6.07)
MP ($2)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 10, A
1 fold, MP bets $0.08, 1 fold, SB calls $0.07, Hero calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.24) 10, 9, 7 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.17, 1 fold, SB calls $0.17

Turn: ($0.58) 7 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($0.58) 3 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.30, SB calls $0.30

Total pot: $1.18 | Rake: $0.05

Results:
SB mucked 8, 8 (two pair, eights and sevens).
Hero had 10, A (two pair, tens and sevens).
Outcome: Hero won $1.13

Hand 3:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($4.89)
MP ($0.86)
Hero (CO) ($3.59)
Button ($2.10)
SB ($2)
BB ($2.37)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J, J
UTG calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.08, Button raises to $0.27, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.19

Flop: ($0.59) 2, 2, 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.39, Hero raises to $2.34, Button calls $1.44 (All-In)

Turn: ($4.25) 5 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($4.25) 9 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $4.25 | Rake: $0.21

Results:
Button had Q, Q (two pair, Queens and twos).
Hero had J, J (two pair, Jacks and twos).
Outcome: Button won $4.04

Why are you only raising 3x preflop? Im sure this has been said a million and one times raise more!!! 4x minimum +1 per limper and if they're really likely to call after limping make it 6,7,8 x just to bloat the pot!

Hand 2, bet the turn, why do you want to keep the pot smaller? Do you not like money?

Hand 3, you need a plan, what's villains 3bet %, if its rather large then you may wanna 4bet/get it in preflop against a range you beat. If it's really low and you think he only 3bets with say JJ+ AK then you mayaswel just fold pre. You're nowhere close to getting good odds to set-mine and are oop, calling 3bets oop is usually terrible.

Dont mean to sound aggressive, just trying to help

Originally Posted by acky100

Why are you only raising 3x preflop? Im sure this has been said a million and one times raise more!!! 4x minimum +1 per limper and if they're really likely to call after limping make it 6,7,8 x just to bloat the pot!

I have been doing 4X as my standard mostly recently, but still sometimes 3X. OK 4X all the time from now on!

Originally Posted by acky100

Hand 2, bet the turn, why do you want to keep the pot smaller? Do you not like money?

Small hand, small pot?? Just in case he is slow-playing a beast?

Originally Posted by acky100

Hand 3, you need a plan, what's villains 3bet %, if its rather large then you may wanna 4bet/get it in preflop against a range you beat. If it's really low and you think he only 3bets with say JJ+ AK then you mayaswel just fold pre. You're nowhere close to getting good odds to set-mine and are oop, calling 3bets oop is usually terrible.

Yeah, I suppose I don't think about position when deciding whether to call a 3-bet or not but I can see how important it is. Didn't have many hands on the guy (49) 3-bet was 12.5% but I try not to look at those stats until 200+ hands cos they are often meaningless.

Originally Posted by acky100

Dont mean to sound aggressive, just trying to help

It's cool, I know that, I appreciate the feedback

Originally Posted by acky100

Why are you only raising 3x preflop? Im sure this has been said a million and one times raise more!!! 4x minimum

Apparently I missed that memo; why do we always open to at least 4bbs?

cos its 2nl

Originally Posted by Pascal-lf

cos its 2nl

and because we're playing a strong range. I you're playing a TAG style you want the pots to be big because our range crushes most of our opponents. If you're playing looser(LAG) then you can open smaller because you'll be opening a lot more pots with a weaker range.

Bet the turn in hand 2. The board is super drawy and if he's drawing he'll likely call a bet on the turn that he won't call if he misses on the river. If he's slowplaying a monster he'll let you know by raising and then you can fold. If you want to control the pot on that type of board do it by checking back the river not the turn although I think you can usually just bet both turn and river.

Hand 1 I would have played exactly the same. Hand 2 I would barrel turn too. Very drawy and a lot of his range is draws you want to make pay to see the river (hate that term, but no other way to describe it).

Hand three isn't great IMO. Calling pre is questionable to start with and would depend on stats/reads. Shoving the flop isn't great either. Obv if you think he'll call with 44-TT you can but I don't know if a lot of players would. I'd probably call down in hand three to bluff catch and get notes.

Also

because I thought that I would likely be ahead and had fold equity.

doesn't really make sense. If your ahead you don't want/need FE. If you're behind he isn't going to fold anyway (because thats boats or QQ+)

good to see this thread for November.
been away for a couple of weeks, hope to get some poker in, and to post some hands.

stats or reads for hand 3?

Originally Posted by bgomez89

stats or reads for hand 3?

26/25, 12.5% 3bet (49 hands). No reads other than he seemed quite aggressive.

*bracing myself for a slating*

So I have 54 hands on villain now, but when this happened probably only about 20 and tbh I wasn't looking at his stats anyway.

I prob shouldn't have called the 3bet, but then again we were both over 250 BB deep so I had good implied odds. But is the reason we don't call 3bets to set-mine not only to do with implied odds but also because you might run into a monster set like this??

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($0.80)
BB ($0.71)
UTG ($2.09)
UTG+1 ($1.54)
Hero (MP1) ($5.51)
MP2 ($6.37)
CO ($6.24)
Button ($6.34) 31/9 10% 3bet (54 hands)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 5, 5
2 folds, Hero bets $0.06, 1 fold, CO calls $0.06, Button raises to $0.27, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.21, CO calls $0.21

Flop: ($0.84) K, A, 5 (3 players)
Hero bets $0.40, CO calls $0.40, Button calls $0.40

Turn: ($2.04) 4 (3 players)
Hero bets $1.50, 1 fold, Button raises to $5.67 (All-In), Hero calls $3.34 (All-In)

River: ($11.72) 8 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $11.72 | Rake: $0.58

Results:
Button had K, K (three of a kind, Kings).
Hero had 5, 5 (three of a kind, fives).
Outcome: Button won $11.14

Yeah you had the implied odds to call, and it was a cooler.

But the deeper you get the more you need to be able to at least consider folding bottom set - time for another boob graph?

Yeah looking back I should probably have begrudgingly folded here.

Still $12 up since starting the nitring though! So not a full tit yet

don't lead flop, not folding

Subscribing.

Also, I know this isn't strat content but I just have to say that when the turn card gives villain an A high flush and hero a straight flush and you are both deep stacked, your day gets a lot brighter. Mine did anyways.

Why are you calling with the jj hand preflop?

Originally Posted by bgomez89

Why are you calling with the jj hand preflop?

fold?

Originally Posted by micromachine

*bracing myself for a slating*

So I have 54 hands on villain now, but when this happened probably only about 20 and tbh I wasn't looking at his stats anyway.

I prob shouldn't have called the 3bet, but then again we were both over 250 BB deep so I had good implied odds. But is the reason we don't call 3bets to set-mine not only to do with implied odds but also because you might run into a monster set like this??

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($0.80)
BB ($0.71)
UTG ($2.09)
UTG+1 ($1.54)
Hero (MP1) ($5.51)
MP2 ($6.37)
CO ($6.24)
Button ($6.34) 31/9 10% 3bet (54 hands)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 5, 5
2 folds, Hero bets $0.06, 1 fold, CO calls $0.06, Button raises to $0.27, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.21, CO calls $0.21

Flop: ($0.84) K, A, 5 (3 players)
Hero bets $0.40, CO calls $0.40, Button calls $0.40

Turn: ($2.04) 4 (3 players)
Hero bets $1.50, 1 fold, Button raises to $5.67 (All-In), Hero calls $3.34 (All-In)

River: ($11.72) 8 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $11.72 | Rake: $0.58

Results:
Button had K, K (three of a kind, Kings).
Hero had 5, 5 (three of a kind, fives).
Outcome: Button won $11.14

Originally Posted by Cafeman31

Yeah you had the implied odds to call, and it was a cooler.

But the deeper you get the more you need to be able to at least consider folding bottom set - time for another boob graph?

yeah, hardest thing in the world to do is fold a set on that board, there's so much you believe you're ahead, I dont think I could fold there, but alarm bells would ring when he shoves, thats for sure. You pray he has AK.

Originally Posted by bgomez89

Why are you calling with the jj hand preflop?

I think calling a 3-bet with JJ is OK isn't it?

Its not good enough to 4bet or shove against most villains, but its too good to fold IMO. Especially as this is 2NL, I have been in similar spots to this where I have called the 3-bet, they check the flop, I bet and they fold (presumably AK, AQ or 88). Furthermore, I know the sample size is low but he did come across as aggressive, meaning he could even be 3-betting with something like AJ or AT.

OOP I think you need a good reason to be just flatting the 3bet, whether that's because he 3bets too much or plays very face up post, you say he's aggro so I would say jamming>folding>flatting, he's just gonna put u in tough spots OOP which is something to avoid!

as played I prob c/c the flop and re-evaluate ott, keeps his range wide and bluffy, but still puts us in difficult turn spots, which is why I think jam or fold pre

also, the similar spot u describe above is where your ip which isn't very similar and much easier to play

Originally Posted by orangepeeleo

OOP I think you need a good reason to be just flatting the 3bet, whether that's because he 3bets too much or plays very face up post, you say he's aggro so I would say jamming>folding>flatting, he's just gonna put u in tough spots OOP which is something to avoid!

Good point, this has come up a few times now.

From now on I will really try to avoid calling 3-bets OOP.

Is it ever OK? I can think of one reason to do it, which would be to setmine with the correct implied odds. In the hand we are discussing the call to potential winnings ratio is ~1:10. If he had a 200BB stack behind, making the ratio 1:20, I would be good calling here I think.

You have to have a good read on villain though MM.Just because he has 200bb does not mean he's going to stack off with AA to a turn CR.For that matter he might check behind the turn to control the pot with only one pair given you checked called the flop.

Originally Posted by JOEBOB69

You have to have a good read on villain though MM.Just because he has 200bb does not mean he's going to stack off with AA to a turn CR.For that matter he might check behind the turn to control the pot with only one pair given you checked called the flop.

Yeah, if anything he is less likely to stack off. I know I am cautious about getting into big hands with another deep stack. And also, look at the trouble you can get into when they hit higher set, like in my 55 hand above. Maybe its safer if I just avoid flatting 3bets OOP completely, and just 4bet or fold.

Originally Posted by orangepeeleo

you say he's aggro so I would say jamming>folding>flatting, he's just gonna put u in tough spots OOP which is something to avoid!

yep

I flatted the BB's 4bet because I thought CO would call it as well. My plan was to then shove/call a shove on any flop. CO has a high 3bet stat and was pretty much loose passive so I thought he would call the 4bet but if I shoved pre he would probably fold (with such a high 3bet stat he likely doesn't have much). Fair enough or should I 5bet shove pre here to avoid suckouts?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (MP2) ($2.54)
CO ($6.84) 35/16 14%3bet, 100 hands
Button ($1.62)
SB ($4.67)
BB ($2.04) 22/18, 7%3bet, 50 hands
UTG ($0.75)
UTG+1 ($1.61)
MP1 ($1.81)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A, A
3 folds, Hero bets $0.08, CO raises to $0.18, 2 folds, BB raises to $0.60, Hero calls $0.52, CO calls $0.42

Flop: ($1.81) 6, 4, 4 (3 players)
BB bets $1.44 (All-In), Hero raises to $1.94 (All-In), 1 fold

Turn: ($4.69) J (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($4.69) 6 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $4.69 | Rake: $0.23

Results:
BB had Q, Q (two pair, Queens and sixes).
Hero had A, A (two pair, Aces and sixes).
Outcome: Hero won $4.46