Never limp but...

I have seen many different suggestions on what your standard raise should be pre-flop.

My understanding of the "NO LIMPING" rule is that if a hand is worth calling it is worth raising i.e. if it isn't worth raising then fold. Consistently raising decent hands pre-flop may keep weak hands out of the hand, hence making your hand more likely not to be beaten "badly".

So, my question is, should the standard raise be 2x 3x or 4x (I haven't heard of any other "standard" raises).

Additionally if I understand correctly, you add 1x for each limper in the hand (I haven't tried this technique and curious of folks agree about it).

Are my understandings correct, and how do you decide which pre-flop bet is appropriate for the game (since you will be maintaining the same choice throughout the game right)?

I usually do 3x the BB, if I have AA I will go 4 or 5x depending on position. I want 73o to fold. lol. I am hoping that AK or something will call.

I like 3BB+1BB/limper. 2x is useless, IMO, because it gives the BB odds to call you with nearly anything. For ex, BB has 72o. You PFR 15% of the time. SB folds. There's 1 + 1/2 + your 2 BB in the pot, or 3.5 BB total. It costs 1 more to see the flop, or 3.5:1 pot odds, when 72o has 26.5% equity in the hand. Calling is at least mathematically not stupid, though personally I fold here anyway because postflop decisions with that are a nightmare. If you hit with the 7 or 2, are you good? Yuck. Give me worse pot odds and a wider range of hands become clear folds, especially as the BB is out of position.

I'm not as big a fan of changing your action based on your cards, though I watched something recently where someone (Jesus, maybe?) advocated doing that. And, ok, I do sometimes. If I have a made hand on a drawy board that's not complete yet, I'll probably bet more than if I know I'm good and just value betting. I had a great example HU in a tourney recently. We were down to me having about 90% of the chips, so I started shoving with anything remotely decent, with villain predictably folding. Then I get AA. I really, really want a call here. A "standard" 3BB raise would be about half his stack, but I stuck with my play because my "standard" raise at that point was all in and I didn't want to telegraph that I wanted a call. Happily, that was the hand villain got tired of being pushed around and called me, which was probably a smart move since his cards were a 1.5:1 favorite against a random. Had I 3BB raised, I might have gotten a call. Had I been the villain, I would have been suspicious at the change in tactics. What was I trying to say with basically half the normal raise? Weak hand? No...massive chip lead I could easily fold garbage and not hurt my chance to win. The only thing that would have made sense was "I want you to call." So I made the play that might be interpreted as "I don't want you to call" or more likely "I'm not telling you anything about my hand. All my bet means is that I have such a big advantage in this situation, I can afford to push you around and take a risk that you'll get a big hand before you get blinded out."

RF

I agree with the 3x BB + 1 for each limper. Originally, I was doing 4x the BB + 1 per limper in tourneys. But, what I was finding is that it was really sucking on my stack if someone re-raised all in and I wasn't going to call that large of a re-raise. It makes it easier to get away from hands, and it also makes your raising range larger in cash games and even tourneys.

I read somewhere that 2x from early, 2.5x from middle, 3x from late.

I don't agree with the 2x one though. I think 2.5-4x should be the standard depending on the players at the table.

With the 2x raise, I'll call with anything on the BB. It's just pot odds.

In SnG, it's all different.

There are several threads on this topic already, so I won't comment on sizes.

Note that one of the key reasons to raise is to gain initiative. Limping indicates a weaker hand that is more likely to be called when you cbet postflop.

I like to open with 2.5x pretty much much all the time. To me, if you get reraised, you can get out cheaper than 3x or 4x, and also your c-bet will be smaller too since your c-bet is usually about half the pot.
Any raise says "You have a strong hand", so 2.5x usually will do the job. I've seen 2x make the table fold many times.
However if their are limpers early, I'll add 1x for every limper.

yes but if you are a good player, competent postflop, wouldnt you want a weaker player to call with any two out of the BB, as they are way more likely to make mistakes postflop... i generally make my raise sizings due to who is in the blinds, if its a decent player, i may make it larger to discourage a call, but against weaker im happy to make it 2.5x as i really want a call most of the time from them. im talking cash games btw, tourneys differ i guess it depends on the blinds the structure and if there are antes..

and talking cash again i will limp everynow and again with strong and weak hands, as i play against the same players often so i need to mix it up a little to keep them guessing.. but generally speaking first to enter, come in for a raise. its fine to limp in behind another limper though

its also deceptive as well, if you make the same raise with good, great and marginal hands, it will be harder to find out what hands your raising with.. but if you always make it 5x with AA or KK and 3x with decent but not great hands, it wont be long and players will catch on if they are decent players and will exploit you.

Thanks for all the tips guys!

Sorry if this is already dealt with elsewhere but what I was hoping for is right here now.

Pretty sure I'm going to go with 3X while watching the skill level of the blinds like Wizzim noted. I wonder about the idea of altering a bit depending on position, gotta really think about that one.

One other point I'd like clarified: If someone else has bet before you, you are not really limping by calling in this situation... right? For example, someone else bets 1X or 2X , when your turn comes a simple call can be an OK move?

THANKS AGAIN!!!

i dont really change depending on position, but the earlier position smaller raises say 2.5x, later position bigger raises 3x to 3.5x... as you will get more respect from early position generally and less respect from late position raises.. of course this wont work on all tables, and you will have to adjust accordingly.


of course calling can be an ok move.. especially when you have position on a particular player, calling a raise is usually a good play, as it keeps the pot small, and you get to see what the players to act behind you do. generally dont call with a hand that has little potential postflop, ie id rather call a raise with 76 suited than with ace 7 off, as the 76 has the potential to hit the home run postflop, whilst ace 7 is never going to get you anywhere but into trouble, as its easily dominated and will win you small pots but lose you big ones.

..

Good point. Sometimes, sure, though it leads to more complicated postflop play if their range is excessively wide. I suppose I feel the world is simpler when people fold hands that are -EV to play. If they play them anyway, well, -EV for them is +EV for me.

RF

...

Good point. I was about to say the same thing (raising bigger in EP and smaller in LP) but for different reasons. I hadn't considered doing it because of a stronger range in EP. Good stuff.

Anyway, on the subject of raise sizes, I think a set raise size is very limiting. 3x bb or 3x +1 per limper isn't going to achieve the desired results for your raises, sometimes you're going to want to isolate and sometimes you're going to want to build a pot/keep the pot small. That you're unable to set the size of the pot pre-flop (and future bet sizes) is a huge limitation of 3x bb pre-flop, every bb that goes in pre-flop multiplies to find the final pot size after several streets of betting. This is something you should be manipulating.

As a rule of thumb, bets from EP should be bigger than LP (there is an opposite school of thought on this one but this is the one I agree with) because you're more inclined to take the pot down pre-flop and there are extremely few situations were you want to do that from position, even if you raise with rags in position unless you're up against a premium hand it's usually good for you to get a call so you want bet sizes that are going to tempt calls.
You also want the SPR to be higher in LP, where you can control the size of the pot post-flop (get paid for your good hands and play small pots with weaker hands). Similarly you want to reduce your opponent's positional advantage when your in EP, and to do this you have to create a bigger pot relative to the stacks.

In addition to just altering bet sizes based on position, maybe because I've been corrupted by live play, I'm not a fan of fixed bet sizes (even if they adjust based on position and limpers). I preffer to bet based on my cards, making sure to keep balanced ranges against thinking opponents (obviously you don't bother with that against fish). Typically I have two standard bet sizes, 3x and 5-8x (live play, pre-flop raises are bigger, 3 gets no respect) and two interchangable ranges for each of those, SCs can pop up in either and on the rare occasion that there are more strong players than fish at the table aces can show up in either range also. My goal is to achieve enough complexity in my reasons for why I raise x amount for each hand in each situation that I'm difficult to predict whilst still making purposeful raises (i.e. to isolate, to build a pot, etc). I'm not saying that this is right, it's just what makes the most sense to me.

The answer to your question is simple, but also another question: What is the intention of your raise?

Do you want to disguise the strength of your hand? Ok. So raise the same amount for every hand you raise preflop. Further, you can raise a random amount every time (stick in the 2.5-5 BB range), or select the amount you raise based on your position at the table. Using this method, you will raise most when you are the dealer, least when you are under the gun, and probably a little less from the blinds, as that is ew position.

Do you want to shake the limpers? Well, you have to raise more. If you are at a limp-heavy table, this can be a very profitable way of making blinds. You are in Mid to late position and 3 limpers before you, raise more. At some tables 6-10 BB raises get called by the entire table, with any two cards. Keep in mind what your opponents are likely to do, and if needed to shake callers with a hand like 66, either raise a ton if you think you'll get called a lot otherwise, or just limp.

Do you want to make it so people don't have odds to call you? Raise more. Take into account the action already in the pot, who is in the pot that is likely to call a raise, of how much, and how likely they are to fold to a C-Bet if your AKo misses.

Next - take into account who is likely to make a play at you, 3-bet you, and for how much. If you like playing JTo from the button, and don't want to play for nothing, in case you DO connect, then raise. But if every time you raise from the button BB pushes all-in with ATC, and you don't want to play for all your money on JTo, then keep that in mind.

When I was just learning poker, I would tell myself "If you can't raise with it, don't play it." Now I feel my game is more deceptive, and I will occaisonaly take 7-2 to showdown if I'm in position, and feel it will open up the table's image of me. (Last time he did this he showed down 72o for bottom two pair, he could have anything! My AJo is so good here!)

Table image is a lot, so is table dynamics. Just ask yourself why you're raising, and keep in mind what sort of things you're trying to accomplish.

Now it's time to head to the difac.

Yum!

This, I think, depends on how your opponents play.

If you raise bigger in EP then you are raising more because of your increased hand strengtg in this position. However, the raise increase may be significant in terms of a percentage, maybe 1.5 times your LP raise, however in the context of BB and stacksize, its a small raise that really dosent generate much i the way of fold equity (there are few hands that LP will fold to a 5BB raise yet play with a 3BB raise)

So essentially what you are doing is trying to create a bigger pot on average with your stronger hands in EP.

So the crux is how your opponents react to this. If they are aware (and they should be) that your EP range is very strong, then they should only be selecting hands that play well against this range. Therefore against a player who is somewhat positionally aware, you are creating a bigger pot, on average, against a player in position who is selecting hands based on your tight range.


Further more the small increase in EP is quite likely to reduce the number of 3-bets you get preflop (something your range actually wants) and when you are 3-bet, on average, you should be up against a stronger range.

So betting larger in EP (when everyone and his dog knows you have a strong range) dosent give you any advantage, all it does is to ensure you play a bigger pot out of position against opponents who know what your range is.

Against very loose players who are very aggressive and bluffly post flop, the larger raise size is good, provided you are happy to continue after they try firing one or 2 streets as a bluff.

Against loose players who are very fit and fold post flop, the larger raise is also good as you are expecting them to fold to any c-bet unless you are bet (set miners) so again you are getting more money in preflop good and then taking it down with a c-bet.

However, if your opponent is looking at your EP range and thinking 5% mmm I know what he has! and then playing accordingly its a bad strategy because he is selecting hands that play well and has position in a pot that has a lower SPR than had the PF bet been smaller.

So its certainly a valid stratagy but its one that works against certain player types and not others. It certainly snt something you should be doing 100% of the time in 100% of games because a thinking Button / CO is now able to play his position against you with a larger advantage (the lower SPR you will see by the turn)

I agree we probably shouldnt allways do it but i fail to see why having a smaller SPR is a bad thing. It means we win more money when we cbet sucesfully, it means its easier to get it in postflop.
Also if your playing against a good solid player the best think u can ever do is get the SPR down because that means he is gonna have less room to "outplay" us.

My thoughts...

If he is selecting hands based on our range,, then he will be selecting hands that he will not need to fold 65% of the time. Essentially he will be 'out tighting us' with position.

The standard response is 'it depends'!. If you have a realy good hand and there have been a bunch of limpers, then to use the number of limper + 2X times the blind (or just a pot size ) bet. However, if there has been a preflop raise and you are pretty sure you have the best hand preflop, then you should bet 2X the previous raise. If that would take over 60% of your chips, then just shove it all in preflop and hope it holds or they fold.

It completely agree - I too try to not play limp except for connectors in an early and average position of a position which I am ready to dump not reflecting

You might want to consider folding.

SCs OOP are horrible.

most hands are