Never fold AA or KK, never slow play them either?

Hello, I'm new here so please be gentle!

In this thread SICKO saidI'm fairly sure that there are some situations in which we should fold KK or AA, so I'm really cautious about people using the word "never" in that context, and obviously also cautious about people who type all in capitals anyway

Do you guys agree that we should never slow play AA? I was under the impression that we would use different tactics in different situations, but I've only been playing about six weeks so what do I know? Under what circumstances would you slow play AA, if ever?

If you could give some examples of when you have folded AA or KK that would be really useful too. I have folded both AA and KK after the river when I ended up with just AA or KK and I was fairly sure that someone had a flush - should I have called anyway?

Put simply, there are no 'never's in poker. Generally you want to play them strong and fast since they're a pretty vulnerable hand, but that doesn't mean never slowplay them.

I think the 'never fold aa/kk' alludes to a preflop standpoint, but even that statement isn't correct. There are spots for every single type of move in poker.

Slowplaying them preflop or postflop you mean? I'll just assume preflop since there's a lot of times where you should fold AA or KK or slowplay them postflop, depends on the texture of the flop. Preflop, AA KK or maybe QQ are the only hands strong enough to slowplay. Never slowplay AK or JJ or worse. If you're in early position, and the table is aggressive, this is a good time to limp in with AA or KK. If someone raises though, stop slowplaying and reraise. If someone has already limped in, don't try to slowplay and limp as well, raise. Basically, you don't want to slowplay AA or KK in a multiway pot, so you should be more inclined to slowplay if you can keep the pot against just one opponent.

This probably shows what a n00b I am at poker, but generally speaking I don't see the point of going all-in before the flop, unless I have a severely restricted stack. To me it is a complete gamble, and as I play tournies 98% of the time you can go out of the tourney very easily if you make that a habitJust the sort of advice I'm looking for, thanks for that Yes, I like to try to keep people guessing as far as possible, rather than always playing hands exactly the same wayI'm sure what you say is true but I never thought of them as vulnerbale, in what sense are they vulnerable please?

They are vunerable (less than 50% to win) if enough people see the flop. Therefore, you raise to try and get only one opponent.

Cool, thanks for clarifying that

it means that they are yelling as loud as they can

I dont ever slow play AA pre flop, always a raise. no call - no loss. slow play on the flop if an A hits.

KK preflop is another story. I don't have the proper advice for that. All i know is that a majority of the time i have it, i crack aces.

Ben i don't mean to attack you but your post was kinda foolish and one dimensional.

wrong. many many many hands can be slowplayed preflop. limping with any ace in the small blind vs big blind situation i would call slowplaying. you certainly have his average hand beat, but limping and slowplaying is a good play to make from time to time.

There are many many tournament situations where the blinds are low and i don't want to play a big pot with JJ or TT so i'll slowplay and see what developes.

Also not always the case. If i've got AA or sometimes KK and my past experience w/ the player and read can make me pretty sure he's got KK-JJ i'll often just smootcall his raise when i'm in position and let him fire at the pot when 3 undercards come. i might even just call on the flop and wait to the turn to pop it.

there's also nothing wrong with making a standard raise from early position with AA or KK. this gives them the opportunity to reraise and make a big pot.



the greatest part about aces is it's one of the few hands you can justify playing any which way as long as the situation is right.

Limping with an ace in the small blind isn't really considered a slowplay. It's not that strong of a hand, any random hand that he could have isn't that much of an underdog to ace rag. I sometimes just call in the small blind with an Ace rag when it's folded to me and I don't think of it as a slowplay. Same goes for JJ -22 and AK or worse. They are really good hands but they are a lot more vulnerable than AA or KK. You're not worried about any one card hitting on the flop with AA, and you're only worried about an ace hitting on the flop with KK. With JJ it's very easy for at least one overcard to come on the flop. And 7 2 is only a 1.7:1 underdog to AK in other words AK is only a little over 60% to win against two lower cards. So that's why I said usually AA KK or QQ are the only hands you can slowplay.

And about limping with AA or KK in early position. I meant if someone behind you raises, and another player or two calls, then you should stop slowplaying and reraise. Same thing if you limp and there are limpers behind you and the button raises, you shouldn't continue a slowplay here because you're inviting the other limpers to call also. But if just one player raises and everyone folds to you, then you could slowplay since the pot will be heads up. The more players you are up against the greater chance of your big pair being cracked so you should be less inclined to slowplay. And you're right there's nothing wrong with raising with AA or KK in early position, that's what I normally do. But if you do want to slowplay it's best if you're first in to the pot in early position and there are aggressive players behind you.

right on now that you explained it better i pretty much agree with you.

but i still consider slowplaying much more than just AA KK or QQ. there are many times in tournaments or short handed cash games when limping with a number of hands i would consider slowplaying, but i guess it depends on your definition.

Well I'm definitely making more money out of AA and KK now, after trying out some of your tactics, so thanks for that

In general I'd say don't slowplay AA and KK, though there are instances where I might, If you're in late position and you have someone who aggressively raises the button nearly every time when there's only blinds and limpers, good time to slowplay preflop. On the flop if you have a situation where it's unlikely that anyone will improve to beat you like holding AA with K33 rainbow, this is a good time to slowplay you're probably giving no more than 2 outs to them. So in general, you don't want to slow play, but there are definitely situations where you would, always think about what you're giving up when you slowplay with these hands. I'd be much more likely to slowplay with the aces as it's harder to get action with aces, because it's much less likely for your opponent to have one. The kings I like to play a lot faster as you're likely to get more action on them with all the aces live and win bigger pots by playing them fast.

If you could give some examples of when you have folded AA or KK that would be really useful too. I have folded both AA and KK after the river when I ended up with just AA or KK and I was fairly sure that someone had a flush - should I have called anyway?

With AA and to a lesser exten KKt, slowplaying preflop is a TERRIBLE idea. As you say, you'd much rather play them against just one opponent, so if you've got a taker, get as much of the money in Pre as you possibly can. Even against one opponent, play them strong; if you raise to the pont they get out, ok. Better to take down a small pot than try to be tricky and blow a big one.

I agree with Dave here, never slowplay premium hands from any position, you just open yourself up for a badbeat.
Say you limp in LP holding AA/KK and the blinds call, the flop comes 3,7,9 rainbow, SB checks, BB bets out 3xBB, now what do you do? re-raise?
Say you re-raise, SB folds and BB goes all-in, now you have a hard decision here and if you don't think you don't, think again.
If you had played the premium hand stronger preflop, you would know where you stand in hand strength, but with the slowplay route, you are being beat by a set or 2 pair.
And if you have a habit of slowplaying then the scenario I had put forth is all too familiar to you. Either you have had it happen to you or you have seen it happen to someone else.
So please for the sake of your BR, DO NOT slowplay premium hands from any position preflop.

Hmmm, I remember one time in a ring game I had AA in middle position and I limped. I knew the remaining players were aggressive. And sure enough, the CO player raised 3x BB, and the small blind reraised to like 10x bb. I reraised. The CO folded but the SB called. Flop came J 9 2. He checked I bet he reraised all in I called, and he had 10 9 suited and I won a huge pot. He was making a play preflop with a suited connector, but if I raised to begin with he may have folded. And you're reasoning that the other player might crack your AA with two pair or trips is stupid. The flop i just as likely to have an Ace and give him two pair so he'll lose all his chips. Or give him top pair with a weak kicker against AA where we can make some money. But if you do slowplay and no one raises preflop, you have to have the discipline to let a big pair go if it seems like you're beat on the flop.

lots of good stuff here
i personally like to cut the action out early and push hard and fast with them. if the flp misses me i ll give a quick half pot bet and if i m reraised i ll fold ... if i m not re raised and the draws dont amoutn to makin a hand for someone else then i ll push allin of course it always depends but that s the usual

Yeah, and I well remember a hand that came down to SB v BB. SB limped with aces, giving me a free flop with 7-6os. Flop came down 7-7-6, SB proceeds to push allin, and I made a final table and a $100 payday, thanks to him. I would've folded to ANY raise, but he thought it was being cute.

For every example you can point to, someone can tell you a horror story to counter it. Wanna hear another? This happened within the last week. Dude limped from EP with Kings, everybody folded to me in sb. Being an unraised pot, I completed the blind.......with 3-5os. Why not? Wanna guess the flop? 2-6-4 rainbow. Naturally, I checked, kings went all, and all out, in les time than it took to type this. You think I'd have called a 3-4 bet from sb with 3-5os? You think there was big value in letting me sneak into a pot that netted me 11k tourney chips? puhleez!

Usually I don't play slowly with AA and KK, i do a 3xBig blind raise, to have only one or 2 opponents on the flop

Luca

As said before there really are no nevers or always in poker play the way you think will make your opponents make mistakes take your past play and villians past play in consideration and dont play the way you think he thinks you would play AA... if that makes sense.

If you only 3 bet with AA KK you probably wont get paid off big with it as often as you would like to, if you 3 bet too loose you will get looked up way more often than you would like. In poker you cant really think about absolutes there are too many factors at any given moment for that.

6 Weeks ???? Perhaps you could expand on that a bit, if only for our interest. Is that 6 weeks in total and you are truly a beginner, or 6 weeks online, after years and years of playing live?

You write well, and along with you stating you have folded AA and KK both because the situation was right to do so, you seem to show some good poker savvy. Trust us, there are folks who after years just can't seem to fold AA.

Preflop, the only reasonably good argument for folding either is one made about ICM, and bubble play. It is a very esoteric theory. Other than that the only good logic for having folded AA or KK preflop is that you had the 'away' button checked and were either unloading or reloading beer

The message you should get from the replies here is that there is only one 'never' in poker, and that would be along the lines of 'never' use never'. Same with always.

There are times to slowplay both. I can imagine and have slowplayed AA. Limped pot with 4 or 5 limpers, several who have shown no respect for raises. So it wouldn't matter if I raised or not. My logic might go along the lines of let them build a big pot, and see what happens. If the flop shows uncoordinated, then I will call any bet. With many players still in a pot like this, it is likely someone would claim TPGK (top pair, good kicker) and fire at this pot, someone flopping 2 pair is not out of the question. So there is jeopardy about sticking around here. If the board pairs, trips are possible. In the glorious situation where a rainbow, non draw flop gives me trips, slow play almost demands itself. You can only hope someone hit 2 pair. Better even would be that someone else hit trips. You might even find a fish willing to gamble on a runner runner turn/river, partly because it will be hard to find a turn card on an uncoordinated flop, that doesn't create some sort of coordination on the board (many folks can not give up a gutshot).

Bottom line is that if you slow play AA or KK, and can keep your cool, giving up on them is much easier than if you had started off aggressively and got that same handful of callers. But most of the time starting out aggressively will be the much better choice.

I started playing poker bout a week or two after joining this forum. :P

Ya but one thing I say you can NEVER () say in poker is NEVER.

Really?, You had no previous poker experience? I found the site after realizing my game needed something extra, well, lots of something extras. I sort of was under the impression that most were playing long before they even entertained the idea of a group discussion.

What, if any, differences do you think exist between your play, and the play of folks who maybe had already formed many bad habits before finding a forum?

i play aces different ways ,never the same in a tourney , if theres some people at the table that are really aggressive ill limp and let them think they are the aggressor ,or limp reraise pre flop ,or a standard raise, or min raise.try to always mix up your play or you will become easy to read. example hmmm he raised 5x the bb he must be strong,hmm he went all in pre flop he has aces or kings ,,,dont be predictable gl @ the tables

Well, having checked back a bit it is actually more than 6 weeks, although it only feels like 6 weeks to me

My main interest is Matched Betting, which has netted me about four thousand pounds sterling of profit since April 2006, so roughly a thousand USD profit a month on average. In the main forum I use for matched betting there are occasionally threads about poker, and (link removed) sparked off my interest in Poker. I had never played poker before, but had really enjoyed playing pontoon with my mates at school, and had occasionally played blackjack at casinos over the years

So I started playing freerolls, based on the advice from that link above and from the (link removed) found it was a lot of fun and sometimes I did well. Then I saw a thread that told me (link removed) so I decided it was time to learn a lot more about poker from people that knew what they were doing (that's you guys! )

Matched Betting involves a lot of spreadsheets and mental arithmetic, and investing large sums (for a very short period of time) for a relatively small profit, it's all about obtaining value for money and building a bankroll, and that seems to gel quite well with many of the basic principles of poker

One time i was playing a cash game and i got dealt j10 suited so i raised 4bb's, then some guy re-raises me 8xbb's with qq and i call.

Flop comes A K Q and he goes all in and i call and win a massive pot.

KK always seems to get me though!! Is it because I'm not aggressive with it early on??

What relevance does that have to a discussion of whether to slowplay AA and KK?

"One time i was playing a cash game and i got dealt j10 suited so i raised 4bb's, then some guy re-raises me 8xbb's with qq and i call.

Flop comes A K Q and he goes all in and i call and win a massive pot."

WOW awesome dude. That musta been nice. I remember one time I had 77 I limped in early position a few people limped behind me flop came A K 8. I checked then one player bet, then everyone folded to me and I folded also.

yeah, so i guess that dan harrington guy doesn't know what he's talking about. as has been said there are rarely "nevers" in poker because there are a pretty infinite number of different situations

also, there are several things you can do in poker that make it more likely you'll get outdrawn and lose the hand, but still increase your overall expectation in $$. poker isn't about winning pots, it's about winning money

lol...


The point of the story is that he did the right thing and still lost to me.

What i mean is getting dealt a high pocket pair is a blessing but if you over value it then you can go broke.

As for strategy i would suggest that you raise big with anything over JJ and pray that nothing helps them on the flop. Slowplaying a big pocket pair is usually a bad move imo as it gives more people the opportunity to catch a lucky card on the flop and bust you.

I think the best advice here is "never say never" and "always avoid saying always".

I typically make it a practice to play my AA and KK aggressively pre-flop (at least similar to the way I play most other hands with which I raise), but there are times when I will slowplay them. It simply depends on the players left to act behind me. How do the players behind me react to a raise? How do they react to a limp? If I limp, will I get raised? If so, would a raise get re-raised?

If the conditions are right, slowplay. If not, don't.