Need expert advise on maniacs

Maniacs or jackals are those that play almost any 2 cards and bluff alot. Last night I had a sitiuation that it seems very common with these players . I was at a shorthanded NL ring game and he limped in the pot . Everybody folded except me the small blind, I had rockets (Aces) so I raised him and he called. The flop was something like 6,5,3 with 2 clubs. I raised about 2/3 of the pot and he reraised me. I sensed a bluff so I reraised him and he called and now we had a big pot. Now I am thinking he must have me beat with a set or 2 pair so I checked the turn after the 2d came out. He raised like 1/3 of the pot and I knew if I called I would just have to go all in or close to it so I instead folded. I thought about the hand after and I figured he bluffed me out of a nice pot . I figured after I reraise him on the flop and he just called , then he didnt have much or was on a flush draw. If he really had a strong hand then he would ve went all in rather then call because thats how maniacs think . How would you guys had handled it? Is there any expert advise somewhere against these type of players ?

I probably would have pushed after the flop. Chances are he would have folded and even if he didn't, he would have lost.

Some guys just wont fold anything, and these guys are dangerous, they get lucky with crap and bust you out, the other week in our freeroll i got pocket AA early in the game, i raised, some jerk went allin, so naturally i called, he had 8 3 offsuit, so its AA vs. 83,, the flop came 8 3 10,, then a blank and another blank, and 15 minutes into the tourney i was out cause some arse went allin with an 8 3. oh well thats poker is what they say, but something like that is Plain Stupidy and Pure Luck.>> buck

maniacs are great or the poker community, they let other players know that luck is involved. and to the semi pro they butter our bread.


i would not have gotten away from the hand. if the guy thinks he can out play you let him. the problem with this hand is it is a little scary, but i woiuld let him play into me on the flop and push back at him for everything, if he played a crappy 47 42 then you know for future refference, if not he folds most likey.

I used to almost never fold aces in these kind of situations but sometimes I just think the jackal might have gotten lucky . A while back , I had Aces and some jackal called me with 86 . The flop came like 886 and I ended up going all in and going broke . I agree that I want these type of players at my table but they can give me a headache sometimes. I have read a few books but I have yet to find someone who explains in detail how to manage these tough situations . Oh and the reason I didnt push all in on that hand is because I had a large stack , almost $300 and he had me covered so I was afraid to let all that go.

What you want to do against those kinds of players is to push earlier. The reason for this is that you know you will probably get called, so you're putting your chips in when you're confident that you're in the lead.
You explained why you didn't push, and that indicates a serious hole in your game. You HAVE to be willing to put all your money on the line in No Limit. If you take an amount to the table and are afraid to lose it, then you will make folds when you think you are probably ahead, and avoid situations where you're only a moderate favourite to win a big pot. In ring games, you should be playing at stakes where you are comfortable pushing your entire stake into the middle. I wouldn't be comfortable putting $300 on the line, so I'll play micro stakes No Limit when I'm experimenting on it, so I'm not afraid, because that's where I'm comfortable...
Sometimes you'll take a bad beat, sometimes they'll happen to have a hand, but if you know that if you hit that same situation 10 times, and they'll go all-in against you with any flop each time, then those 2-3 times that you lose are part of the game, and made up for with the 7-8 times you win.
The long term is therefore important against this kind of player, where you can't necessarily put them on a hand - they'll far more often have a weak pair or worse than they'll have ended up with 2 pair or better, or they'll often be pushing with a semi-bluff like a flush or straight draw. This means that most of the time you're a significant favourite to win, and if you push the money in you'll win more often than you lose. Because you're willing to let go of a hand to a scare card despite knowing they probably didn't make their hand with it, then you have to put the money in before the scare card has a chance to appear.
Sklanskys beginners tournament strategy suggests pushing all-in with a range of hands. Although it's hardly an optimum strategy, one of the pieces of logic behind it is that a good, aggressive player will push off other players with good post-flop play. They'll make you fold when they have nothing, because they know a card looked bad for you. The all-in pre-flop prevents this kind of play. I'm not saying you should push all-in with Aces in a cash game, but when you're against an opponent who does seem to out-play you by pushing you off pots when you know they're a jackal, then you do have to be willing to push earlier rather than later.
It's hard to find books which detail how to manage these situations - it's about looking at the kind of player you're against. Some players will call too much, but then only raise the flop when they hit well. Then you back off when they reraise you.
Since Jackals will run without the ball, so to speak, their reraise doesn't have anything like the same meaning. What this ends up meaning is that they will get paid off when they hit, but you have to be willing to do that in order to take their chips the majority of the time they don't, unless they have a tell that you can spot. They're harder to play against than loose-passive players or even tight players, because when a loose-passive player raises, you get out the hand, and when a tight player is in the hand, you figure them for the goods. You won't pay them off like you will the Jackal, but then the tight players won't pay your hands off either (note that calling stations are then the ideal opponent, despite suck-outs).
Jackals give you bigger variance but should also give you good profits in the long run - just make sure they don't manage to put you on tilt.

Would you consider playing limit??? This caps the betting/raising so if you lose to a better hand you will only lose so much, and usually you get more action in a limit game.

I think Starfall hit this right on the head. Against a maniac you need to get your money in when you have the best hand. The other thing you need to do is be patient. I know it's hard to do, when they are pushing you hard on flops when you have a draw. and they are blowing you off with huge overbets. You just need to be very patient and let the player come to you when you have a big hand and stack them.

Yea Starfall , well put. I am getting more comfortable at this limit I am playing but yea I guess I was scared on that hand. As far was playing limit holdem , last time I played I was on such a cold streak that I lost my bankroll and got it all back when I went back to NL . I enjoy the thrill of NL better and limit its just too much sucking out. thanks guys

Starfall - you're the man! I really appreciate your time and thoughts here. Giving me some clarity in the murky, dark world of the maniacs... The noobs salute you.... ;0)

The style the villain showed I wouldn't exactly call maniac, more like call station or loose passive, who love limit as there are always pot odds to call with any old junk, NL cap games are available at FT, don't know about anywhere else.

Great post Starfall.