Need advice.. completing SB

I believe this is a leak in my game, but what advice can you give me for completing in the SB in a MTT.

ie: 2 limpers in and you have rag cards, should I complete to see the flop or just give up the blind. I have looked at it as I'm getting (I assume) good odds to see the flop, but I feel I have spewed too many chips in the long run.

If its complete trash, I just fold the small blind. You might have good odds the call preflop, but if you have only 2 people in the pot, you dont have the odds to call and hit 2 pair or maybe 3 of a kind-which is what you'll need to hit in order to continue the hand. Also, you'll be playing out of position as well. You might hit and your hand will be disguised, but you'll usually miss and end up check/folding the flop.

One of the best tips I saw to keep me from overdefending and I don't remember who here said it was "if you fold the sb 2x you have saved 1bb."

One thing I would add on to these comments is you can complete the bet initially (if its not absolute trash) to see what the person in the BB would do - does the person raise or check? Then you might get a sense of what the BB will do in the future and that can be valuable information later on.

If there are limpers ahead you will get that information without having to put one chip more into the pot.

Thanks for the correction Steveg - I must've skipped the part about the two limpers.

How about a little twist to this scenario then. What if the two limpers tend to limp with decent starting hands (e.g., AK) and the BB always checks. Would you call with rags as long as you can afford to complete the bet and try to hit the flop hard? Or would it not make a difference?

not rags, but I would with cards that can solidly connect ie suited connectors and pocket pairs, hands like k7 and q2 are still to crappy to play as they are so unlikely to flop good enough to proceed with confidence and that is when the biggest mistakes can be made.

Okay, so I am now officially posting my first piece of "advice" on the board as opposed to asking a question. For me personally, I would have to have pretty high confidence in my reads on the limpers/BB before completing the SB with just rags. Plus even if you have them on a range of AK, AQs or larger pocket pairs, you would need to hit the flop pretty hard to still counter that. Theoretically would you be comfortable commiting chips with say 8-3o on a flop of 8-6-2 rainbow and then calling a raise from one of the limpers? I prefer to avoid situations like that and overall I find that I get myself into more trouble than it's worth playing from the SB like that. This is of course not to say that it can't work for some people, I just don't think I'm one of them.

I believe some players complete the sb too often but depending upon tourney situation (this is a tourney isn't it?), stack-size, stack-size in relation to other stacks, etc., I belive it is the right play to complete the sb at least half the time. You'll only need to hit it hard on a rare occassion to make it a +EV play. Players like Gavin Smith almost always complete the sb but they are also strong post-flop layers.
Depends on who is limping from early (or what pos. they're limping from of course),... for some players a limp from early would mean at least a decently strong hand.
I probably fold my sb too often myself but try to overcome this by randomly completing it (of course it always is situational).

Thanks for the responses.

I watched this very closely last night, and came across something I hadn't realized.

I was SB (75/150) and completed with suited 2 off connectors, I folded to an all-in bet. Which gave this person an extra 75 chips. Next hand the all-in guy did this again and got 3 callers, he won the hand which now gave him an extra 225 chips that he would not have had, if I had folded pre-flop last hand. This now gave him a free orbit, as next blinds were 100/200, which equalled his chips won from my original SB completion.

So I guess not only did I lose a bit, but helped another gain a lot.

How big is your stake? How much is it going to cost you? How big are the blinds. Are you nearing being in the money?

The biggest fear is that you'll catch fish cards and get a suck out.

About the only time I call in the SB without a decent pkt pair is with suited connectors, and that's only if the others have only called to me---(hope I 'splained that right?)

Excellent Point. Ive never thought of it like that.

if you are talking about only completing, meaning no raises are expected, then the pot odds are always right to complete. In your example, 2 limpers ahead, your getting 7-1 odds.

I was going to advise you just the opposite, but dj makes so much sense AND he kicked my butt yesterday.

But he's right, if there are a couple limpers you have the odds to complete.

But what are proper odds, dj? Is 5:1 good (one limper?)? Where's the cut-off for standard completions?

The downside is, of course, you'll be playing from the worst position, so if you hit the flop somewhat, you're open to re-raises or trapping. If you do complete, then you also need to know when to get away from it post-flop. In the book "Why You Lose at Poker," they talk about the principle of compounding errors. You start off in a bad situation, have a glint of hope so you chase, then you chase a little more - and at the end of it you've lost several BBs, whereas a simple early fold would have saved you all that pain.

Im going to have to respectfully disagree with dj. 7:1 is not good enough odds to call OOP in multi-pot with rags unless it puts you all in or you have some other crazy reason why no more betting takes place. One pair doesnt really do much for rags if there are 3 other players behind you. So you really need 2 pair + to be happy to stick around, and you are not getting the odds for that.

Assume standard enough stack sizes, connectors, suited gappers, broadway hands, PP, I call, complete rags Ill save my .5BB

bump

In HOH vol 2, discussing HU play, he says that it is nearly never correct to fold the sb. He does go on with a caveat 'if you are reasonably sure you will not be raised'.

Since a pure sb-bb contest happens often it is nearly always correct to call there (3-1 odds). Since any random 2 cards are seldom less that about a 40% dog, getting 3-1 in that case is not a bad thing.

Add in a limper or 2, and the increased odds against what still appears to be a random deal, with no serious strength shown, and the increased odds favor completion.

I don't always complete, there are reads involved, of course, but from a purely odds based POV, it can't be considered a bad thing.

Once it gets to 3-4 limpers before you, and no expectation for the bb to raise, the odds get evened out even if someone is slowplaying aces, to the point where at 4 limpers plus the bb, you are getting 11-1 and ATC become viable.

Oddly for me, I am more likely to play ATC than cards I would often play in smaller fields, like hi suited connectors (7 up). With the ATC's you either hit it hard or miss totally, and they are easy to muck, with decent cards against a large field, it gets testy and I often avoid testy situations.

This is as much about feel, as it is statistics, though I'm sure there are a few here who could drum up some stats for us.

Well I ran some hand ranges thru PokerStove with 4 players and it looks like the worse you can be is 11-1. So in a cash game where the chip values are always the same hand after hand, yes it would be correct to complete in the SB if you believe the BB will not raise. Now in tournaments where chip value changes based on stack sizes, blinds, tournament position & payouts, completing the SB has a lot more variables to consider.

Well HU play is quite different then multi-way, and a caveat of knowing you wont get raised is pretty absurd, cause you almost always will in HU, so I will have to find that section again cause i must not be getting something.

he also suggests getting 20:1 i think to complete in a multi-way pot with random cards. Now I beleive this is in one of his cash books but his point is pretty much the chances of winning are just terrible. you hit 2 pair + something like 3% of the time, and winning hands OOP with rags is very hard to do, and when you do its going to be a very small pot since you cant really hang around even with a top pair bad kicker hand.

You cant really go by poker stove in a situation like this since you will be folding most of your winning hands being OOP. Thats why I said unless you are going all in or know there will be no betting since only then can you know your equity against ranges.

Also you say you are 11:1 but say its good to call 7:1? I suppose because you usually are better than that, but really you are folding too many winning hands calling with any 2. In tournys this is even a bigger mistake multi-way because you dont have any implied odds in case you hit your 3%.

The small blind is absolute crap. I lose more money from the SB in every flop game than all other positions combined. In some games it's the only position that I lose money in. I play it so poorly that I'd save money by folding it every time. That being said...

You really aren't getting good enough odds to complete with rags against two limpers. If the limpers are coming in with any pair, any 2 B-Way, AXs, and one/two gap suited connectors then you only have about 20% equity with unconnected/unsuited low cards (rags). Not to mention you'll play the rest of the hand out of position.

What are you planning to do when you don't connect with the flop? Check? Or how about bluffing into multiple opponents who you know had better starting hands than yourself? Neither of those is very pretty. Without flopping the nuts (or close to it) you really won't know how to proceed.

I say if you can't raise from the SB (against 2 limpers) then fold. Odds can sometimes be enough to justify a call with one disadvantage (poor starting hands) but rarely enough to overcome multiple disadvantages (poop starting hand, poor position, and facing multiple opponents).

Thoughts of a little fish, money i have put in the pot is no longer mine therefore i do not need to defend.
I am getting a reduced price to call therefore it is good value but cards with very little chances of winning are always bad value, i chose to relax my starting hand requirements and hope to win a small pot if i hit hard. This will give the impression i am a looser player than i am, if the cards are shown, which is nice.
No-one has suggested this is a good time for a squeeze but with only 2 limpers and the BB to go i would give some serious thought to raising, i want to know what they limped with (i.e. information bet) if i am playing a pot and i am happy to take the pot now if i think they may fold (calling stations excepted).
Be positive in every position, maybe i mean relaxed, don't feel pressured to play or fold because you have payed a blind, i think off paying the blinds as a discount into the flop or hand, i look forward to the monsters i am dealt there and i have no choice about paying them.
If i said anything stupid somebody let me know i'll delete it.

Good post. THIS was the only thing stupid you said. Please delete it.
G the W

In the sb case, reads are very important, as are table image, and the table image you want to manipulate.

Lest anyone think I am a fish and always complete the bb, think again. The odds have swayed me to complete more than I once did, but that doesn't mean I am completing with complete junk. Connectibles above a 4 low do get consideration , but 32 won't, generally. Nor will 42 thru 92, nor any hand with a 3 in it. I don't like Jx.

The reads will come into play when I might fold K8 and lower in the sb to someone whose bb I have been taking advantage of. Often with a Kx in the sb, if opening, a raise is better than a completion, it will take the pot most of the time and is easy to fold to resistance. But sometimes it is better (IMO) in the long run to muck the Kx in the small blind especially if I have stolen the last 4 bb with semi-bluff raises either pre or post flop.

The point is about completing the sb tho, not raising, or calling a raise with sub prime cards. And in that case, where multiple players have hooks in the waters, completion is just another hook in the pond.

well folded to the SB and 2 limpers is completely 100% different.

I havent addressed raising really at all but it can be a good play sometimes if you are playing two people who limp/fold a lot. However id probably do this with the same cards I mentioned to limp with (as well as big hands), including some rags just isnt needed here, your range is wide enough and if you want to widen it just increase your raise/limp with the SC type hands. A caveat here is not many people limp/fold so dont do this into a 45/5 who calls a raise 44% of the time and doesnt fold post flop.

As for your Harrington comment earlier I just realized where he said that and it was in the HU section(as in only 2 people total not folded around). This is also 100% different since the SB has position is said situations.

Are you saying that fish think that money they have put in the pot is no longer theirs? If so then our definitions of fish differ quite a bit. Blinds are bets and all bets belong to the pot. They're bad bets because they're made blind but bets none the less. I don't think a fish would think that way at all.

Blinds do need to be defended from steal attempts. Sometimes odds will justify loosening up starting hand requirements. Neither apply to the OP's question.

Playing rags, out of position, against multiple opponents isn't defending your blind. It's just bad poker.

If you're not going to fold rags in the SB then what are you going to fold?

In general, I play the SB looser than my starting hands but junk is junk no matter what. don't get married to the hand just b/c you already put money in the pot. Once you're in the SB, that money you put in is not yours. don't feel too obligated to defend but don't let others run over you either. Your goal should be to find that harmony.

If you are playing the player then you can make a play by raising and taking down the pot but that play won't work every time so use it selectively and only against BB and/or another weak player.

GL

It's good pot odds only if you have lots of opponents in. Those crap hands, I just fold them.

For me, a rule of thumb is, never call small blind, raise or fold. (certain situations might ask for a call, bust mostly, it's raise or fold for me).

Four or more limpers I will just call, but with two I need a hand, like suited connectors or a pocket pair. What is cool is when 4 or more have limped and the BB bumps it up 4-5 times the BB. That takes guts to do that with nothing!!! Usually they all fold.

i think that the biggest mistake is that people feel that they have to call and see the flop.
just my opinion but try a raise too here, not something stupid like all in but something that says i have some cards here. then you can either bluff the flop, or if you hit your garbage then a check raise is always fun...but really, its all depending on how you think the other players are gonna respond. its not like poker is always the same...

Quite a few players, especially those who are inexperienced, complete the SB way too much. I've read it, heard it said in videos, by successful players on tv and by people sitting next to me at live games. Generally, If I wouldn't play it late position, I'm probably not playing it on the SB.

~H

I've found almost 75% of the time i call in the sb i end up folding adn lose chips so if i have rags in sb blind i usually fold

I think there is a time and a place for calling BB with rags, and tournaments aren't it

Well it is ok in the earlier stages but when the blinds begin to mean something you may as well burn your chips.

Well... money in the pot is no longer yours but your small blind is only sort of in the pot. What I mean is that having the small blind out there makes the price of calling less, while keeping the pot size large. This means you can call with more hands knowing that you are getting good odds on your money.

But if you win 7x what you put in 25% of your time, you're making a huge profit. You still have to take into account the odds you are getting on the money you put in by completing the small blind. I don't know exactly the probability of flopping two pair or better, but 7:1 is pretty goods odds to try and hit a hand, especially with a hand that has a good chance to connect (e.g. suited connectors).