MTT Live Game - JJ UTG

#1 31st July 2008, 6:00 PM

I play in a points league locally and was presented with a situation that I want to run past everyone for advice. I will not post the results (my actions) until after we have discussed it a bit.

Seven table Tourney. Eight people per table. Down to final two tables. Blinds are 2/4 thousand. I have 17K.

I am under the gun with JJ. Player with 19K left goes all. Everyone else folds to the BB who calls the All in with around 23K.

What would you have done as first to act and if you did act with a bet (other than an all in) would you have called the two al lns

The other two players that were all in are fairly good players but not overly aggresive during regular play.

#2 31st July 2008, 6:07 PM

It wouldn't matter for me because I would have already been all-in.

#3 31st July 2008, 6:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVHillbilly

It wouldn't matter for me because I would have already been all-in.

You should be open shoving your stack sir.

#4 31st July 2008, 6:54 PM

I would have likely called the all-in. They could have a lot of different hands. There is a good chance you'd be behind though.

I think the best (think safest) advice at this point would be to fold in the BB already called the all-in with a bigger stack than your UTG.

#5 31st July 2008, 9:06 PM

Keep the answers coming. Tomorrow I will reveal what I did and what the results were.

#6 31st July 2008, 9:08 PM

there is no decision to make here

you should be shipping your stack in every time in this situation

#7 1st August 2008, 4:04 PM

Anyone who pushed all in on this hand lost. Anyone who called the all in reraise from the BB lost this hand as well.

I folded. I did not want to enter the pot without a raise so I saw it as either all in or fold. I did not feel that JJ would be enough at this point so I folded.

The person with 19k pushed all in (with A10s) and the BB called with QQ

The flop hit a 10 and the Qs help up in the end.

Had I pushed all in I felt that the person with A10 may have folded but is that likely? I doubt the QQ was going anywhere for only 13 more from the BB.

#8 1st August 2008, 4:15 PM

Well since you would have lost great fold then !!!!!!

So did you just open fold your JJ here UTG or did you invest some of your 4.5bb stack and then fold? Did you win the tourney? Did you limp/fold with JJ? Any normal raise commits you so you must have read that someone had QQ before they acted and folded. Or maybe you put in 4000 of your 17000 stack and then folded to the raise. Either way I'd rather lose the hand making the right play than survive for 10 more minutes making the wrong one, and there is NO DOUBT that you made a horrible play.

#9 1st August 2008, 4:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmixer

I did not feel that JJ would be enough at this point so I folded.

to clarify the situation, you have 17K stack, you have an M of less than 3 (i.e. you can go thorough the blinds three time before you are blinded out), you are in the BB next hand (so will only have 13K chips), and you've been dealt the 4th best starting hand.

And you folded?

Oh, wait, you were right, you would have lost. Nice fold.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmixer

Had I pushed all in I felt that the person with A10 may have folded but is that likely? I doubt the QQ was going anywhere for only 13 more from the BB.

But if you were UTG, then you would have been first to act, surely? You've lost me i'm afraid.

#10 1st August 2008, 4:26 PM

I guess I had a gut feeling. I folded outright. I didnt want to limp from UTG only to be re-reaised.

I was in 12th place at the time this hand took place and I finished in 8th which in this league makes points. In a real money tourney with this amount of people I also would have made the money vs possibly not making it.

Also I saw the stack sizes 17, 19 and 23 too close to just flat call or 3x raise and be in for 12. If the BB calls my 12 and the A10 folds then when the flop comes out I put in my last 5 and with only a 10 out there I am pretty sure QQ would have called. Sure this info comes from knowing the outcome.

Did I make a horible play? I might have. I am here to learn so I do not take what you say as personal but only as a way to learn more about how MOST hands would have played out vs the way my turned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVHillbilly

Well since you would have lost great fold then !!!!!!

So did you just open fold your JJ here UTG or did you invest some of your 4.5bb stack and then fold? Did you win the tourney? Did you limp/fold with JJ? Any normal raise commits you so you must have read that someone had QQ before they acted and folded. Or maybe you put in 4000 of your 17000 stack and then folded to the raise. Either way I'd rather lose the hand making the right play than survive for 10 more minutes making the wrong one, and there is NO DOUBT that you made a horrible play.

#11 1st August 2008, 4:34 PM

Yea, you're getting a lot of sarcasm here...I think what everyone is trying to say is simply this: Do not be result-oriented. If the QQ player had AK or 1010, would you feel awful afterwards? The truth is, it doesn't matter. As stated above, you should get it all in here every time.

#12 1st August 2008, 4:35 PM

How did I lose you? I said that if I was all in for 17 under the gun I think the person with QQ would have easily called it and rightfully so according to what is being said in this thread. Of course I didnt know that when I saw my JJ someone else had QQ but the other stack sizes were close enough to mine to make me believe that they would have called with any A or K based on the players table at the time. That is information that was not previously provided in this thread as I am trying to get general replies based on what should be done in MOST cases and not just in mine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by robwhufc

But if you were UTG, then you would have been first to act, surely? You've lost me i'm afraid.

#13 1st August 2008, 4:40 PM

I think I am getting the sarcastic responses because people feel that I duped them somehow, but in reality was looking for responses based on what should be done the majority of the time.

If I had mentioned from the onset that out of the people to act behind me 3 were likely to call with any K or A would I be getting the same push all in response?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Shrog

Yea, you're getting a lot of sarcasm here...I think what everyone is trying to say is simply this: Do not be result-oriented. If the QQ player had AK or 1010, would you feel awful afterwards? The truth is, it doesn't matter. As stated above, you should get it all in here every time.

#14 1st August 2008, 4:43 PM

Given the situation in the lead post alone. What hands would you push all in with here. 1010 or better?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Shrog

Yea, you're getting a lot of sarcasm here...I think what everyone is trying to say is simply this: Do not be result-oriented. If the QQ player had AK or 1010, would you feel awful afterwards? The truth is, it doesn't matter. As stated above, you should get it all in here every time.

#15 1st August 2008, 4:48 PM

With an M of 3 and getting ready to take the bb, open folding JJ is as close as you can get to a mortal sin at a poker table. Were you playing just to make the points or were you playing to win? Your JJ figures to be the best hand about 98% of the time here. Folding it when your this short (assuming the guy with QQ didn't show you his hand first) is bad.

You want to be called by hands like Ax. Let's say your opponent's will call with any Ace or King and any pair 77+, you're better than a coinflip against 2 opponents and around 70% if you only get 1 caller with that range.

#16 1st August 2008, 4:51 PM

Thanks for the response. In the future I will know that going all in here was the move to make. If I had simply called, not something I do UTG usually, and I got a raise all in or even a 3x BB raise should I call or fold?

I was playing to win but I was also paying to see if I could better my position.

To be 100% honest I was talking on the phone to a friend earlier that day and he randomly said to me dont go all in with JJ so maybe my susperstition got the better of me as well. LOL

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVHillbilly

With an M of 3 and getting ready to take the bb, open folding JJ is as close as you can get to a mortal sin at a poker table. Where you playing just to make the points or were you playing to win? Your JJ figures to be the best hand about 98% of the time here. Folding it when your this short (assuming the guy with QQ didn't show you his hand first) is bad.

#17 1st August 2008, 4:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmixer

How did I lose you? I said that if I was all in for 17 under the gun I think the person with QQ would have easily called it and rightfully so according to what is being said in this thread. Of course I didnt know that when I saw my JJ someone else had QQ but the other stack sizes were close enough to mine to make me believe that they would have called with any A or K based on the players table at the time. That is information that was not previously provided in this thread as I am trying to get general replies based on what should be done in MOST cases and not just in mine.

You lost me because you were talking as if you would have still had a decision to make, whereas if you'd gone all in preflop you'd just have to see what opponents have, and what is dealt out on the board (if they don't all fold).

I don't agree that any Ace or King is calling you here. Would K2 offsuit call? Would you have called if you had K2 offsuit? If you folded JJ, then the answer is no. And if you are called by an Ace or a King, and are 65/35 favourite with 6/4 odds, then that is good isn't it?

If it was me playing, i'd have gone all in with JJ, would have been called by QQ, and would have got up, picked up my MP3 player, shook hands with a couple of my opponents, and walked out. WVHillbilly is right though, what happened was a very unlikely outcome, and 2/3rds of the time opponents would all fold.

You have no chance of winning an MTT or placing well if you play this timidly. and unless you've taken a bad beat or been completely card dead, or failed to hit any draws, you shouldn't be so low stacked at the business end of a tourney - if you are in that situation because you play too weak and too tight, you are going fall short of the money repeatedly.

#18 1st August 2008, 5:15 PM

Because there were more tables then usual I think the dealer decided to make this a turbo. At least it felt that way to me. The two peopel that ended up in this hand were at 19 and 23 vs my 19 so really I was all that short stacked but my M was low.

In the future I will be more then likely pushing with JJ in this position and that is what I love about this place. I get to learn from peopel that know a lot more than I do about the game.

I really do appreciate all of the replies. I guess the answer was easier than I thought but know I would have lost I wanted to hear what evryone thought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by robwhufc

You lost me because you were talking as if you would have still had a decision to make, whereas if you'd gone all in preflop you'd just have to see what opponents have, and what is dealt out on the board (if they don't all fold).

I don't agree that any Ace or King is calling you here. Would K2 offsuit call? Would you have called if you had K2 offsuit? If you folded JJ, then the answer is no. And if you are called by an Ace or a King, and are 65/35 favourite with 6/4 odds, then that is good isn't it?

If it was me playing, i'd have gone all in with JJ, would have been called by QQ, and would have got up, picked up my MP3 player, shook hands with a couple of my opponents, and walked out. WVHillbilly is right though, what happened was a very unlikely outcome, and 2/3rds of the time opponents would all fold.

You have no chance of winning an MTT or placing well if you play this timidly. and unless you've taken a bad beat or been completely card dead, or failed to hit any draws, you shouldn't be so low stacked at the business end of a tourney - if you are in that situation because you play too weak and too tight, you are going fall short of the money repeatedly.

#19 1st August 2008, 7:12 PM

I think the most important lesson here (apart from shipping it all in with JJ with an M of 3) is to not be results oriented.

Yes, you'd have run into QQ and lost. But that doesn't make it a good fold. If you had KK here, folded, and it turned out someone had AA, would that make it a good fold? Of course not.

There's a time and a place to fold JJ preflop, but when you're as short stacked as this you just need to push all in.

If you haven't read Harrington on Hold'em I recommend you do so. Specifically the chapter on inflection points in volume II would be useful to you

#20 1st August 2008, 7:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RollinOnDubz

I personally don't trust J's enough to make a big raise preflop so, limping UTG is in line .You having 4x BB still puts you in a good spot. Now the 2 all-ins should raise some flags but, I wasnt there personally so I dont know the table. I would have folded.

If you haven't read Harrington on Hold'em I recommend you do so. Specifically the chapter on inflection points in volume II would be useful to you

#21 2nd August 2008, 7:21 AM

I am reading volume 1. Thanks for the tip. I look forward to vol 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by CfPoker

I think the most important lesson here (apart from shipping it all in with JJ with an M of 3) is to not be results oriented.

Yes, you'd have run into QQ and lost. But that doesn't make it a good fold. If you had KK here, folded, and it turned out someone had AA, would that make it a good fold? Of course not.

There's a time and a place to fold JJ preflop, but when you're as short stacked as this you just need to push all in.

If you haven't read Harrington on Hold'em I recommend you do so. Specifically the chapter on inflection points in volume II would be useful to you

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