Moving from 2NL to 5NL - your advise please

Hey,
since my BR on 2NL is steadily growing I am thinking I might move up within a week or so.

I hear that players on 2NL and 5NL are more or less the same, and I know these types of threads were done befpre, but nevertheless:

In your experience, what is it like to start on 5NL coming from 2NL?

Thanks a bunch!

TOUGH.

IMO (and many others) This is the biggest leap in difficulty that you will see.

Firstly because you are leaving behind the guys that have just moved up from Facebook but also because its quite a jump in bet sizes. This will take some getting used to.

Really??
I thought I heard that player skills were not very different on 2NL, 5NL and 10NL.

Re: betsizes I am already getting used to larger stacks as on 2 NL on Stars you can have $5 buyins. Atm I am doing $3 buyins and will so $4 buyns also before moving up. (although the blinds are still just 0.02).

This is about moving up in stakes in general--not about the stakes mentioned by the OP.

Move up if you have a large enough bankroll to support it! Don't move up just because you think you can move up stakes and make more money. Sometimes if you are crushing the tables at one level you can just add another table at these stakes.

Just keep an eye on the bankroll and don't be too stubborn to move back down in stakes. Your buy-in at higher levels will put you in situations where the losses can be greater than you have seen before.

Good Luck!

Well you will likely hear this from guys that have not played microstakes for some time.... or ateast the lower ones!

Yes you are right, atleast there is not a great deal or skill difference between 10NL and 5. But its not just about the differnce in the players you face.

You need to have a LARGE edge over these players to make up for the rake that you pay in order to make a good consistant winrate. This also gives you the psychological advantage you need. When you feel confident and good about the game you are playing, you play well and the beats affect you less.

If you go from merely comfortable beating 2NL (4BB/100) and move up I guarantee that the beats and larger bet sizing will combine and hamper your confidence enough to turn you from a marginal winner into another breakeven frustrated player. It happened to me.... twice.

I played Facebook, then 2NL and then 5NL and am now trying to find my feet at 10.

IMO you shouldnt move up a stake untill you are really destroying the one you are at (5-6BBs over 30k hands)

Aha! I am going to look into where I am at.

To other poster: I am planning to move up when I have 20-25 BI and will move back down if I slip to 10 BI. (=25 BI at 2NL)

Everyone knows my saga. I moved up from 2nl to 5nl for the last time (Hopefully) on Feb 1st. I tried 4 times to move up before that and crashed each time.

The biggest difference between the two stakes is that at 2nl there are soooo many bad players that you can make up for your own mistakes by taking other player's stacks routinely. At 5nl there are fewer of these so when you lose it is harder to recover.

I am now at 30k+ hands at 5nl and am up slightly. Make sure you have at least $ 150 in your roll, don't go crazy shoving single pairs on the flop and learn to fold when you sense you are beat and you should do ok.

I honestly believe you should not really worry about it. People will tell you it is different but the fact is that it is pretty much the same game and the same rules apply

says the guy who plays PLO not NLHE? and probably for 20x the stakes????

I understand how you feel but honestly, you are thinking too much for the level you are playing and overthinking everything. It is a decent enough mentality for when you play higher up but for now, its really simple.

Oh and I started off at the micro NLHE like everyone

+109!

5NL and 2NL are NOT the same game. They do play similarly but 5NL is FAR, FAR harder to beat for a guy that has just moved up.

Getting so sick of hearing guys at 25-100NL saying they are basically the same. Its almost as if they are taunting us micro guys, sometimes I thinks its just ignorant. So they started out there like the rest of us but how long ago was this? Everyone knows these games get tougher every year as the mean skill level increases. Sure if I was playing 50NL I guess I wouldn't see much difference if I dropped down to low micros for a laugh.

...but that's not really the point is it.

Ok simple question

you are a 14/12 player with like 4.5% 3 bet and won at 4BB/100 at 2nl. You move up. Do you honestly think that people at that level understand enough to adjust to your game and play you differently and hence your winrate drops?

Trust me from someone who has played there and others who have will say the same, the difference is not noticeable and if you play the same style that you did at 2nl, your winrate is not going to drop significantly and I beg to say not at all.

Well according to PTR my winrate is just 3.09 over 50K hands however I am sure that over the past 20K or 30K hands it must be higher.

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And if you only move up when you are "destroying" you will never reach up very far unless you are top 3%

As someone who has recently played 2nl and 5nl and onto 10nl I have to say there isnt much diff between them all. The basic principal is that your weaknesses aren't being exploited in these games.

Ya, there are less people in 5nl that will just spew their chips to you or go to the river with gutshots but the way you're winning at 2nl wont be any different then at 5nl. Basic fundamental ABC poker is still the way to win at these games and if you dont have as many spewtards you will have more weaktights and you should be able to win a lot more small pots, which really add up.

EDIT:Basically everyone still sucks one way or the other. The ones that you come across that seem pretty good wont be there long anyways cause they move up.

Word?

There are less all ins so you have to learn to value bet. 1/2 to 2/3 pot and you'll get 2nd pair to call you. Slow play monsters and you'll get a lot of action. Also, prepare for the bad beats as lots of limp/ callers. I've ran though many bad beats. In this case just raise like 5-6x BB plus 1 a limper I've played like 10k hands and that's my opinion on it.

The fact of he matter is, that the majority of players over adjust when taking shots/moving up. Most players can admit that when moving up, things don;t always go smoothly, its pretty much the same at every level.

But as Mayo said, playing a 14/12 style at 2nl and winning, is pretty much gonna be winning at 5nl by the same rate. You guys need to get a fking grip and understanding of variance quick and stop thinking "oh shit this is level is well tougher".

Fish are fish, they dont play much differently at 2nl, 10nl or even 100nl, theyre fish ffs. It should be intuitive to you all that as you go up, fish become less and there are more regs. So table select and play with more fish, or learn how to beat regs.

I don't know it's good to learn about bet sizes at these limits but not needed to win.I had a light bulb moment a few days ago when belgo said that these guys would call off light to 4bets.So i've been tring to get the to call off light in every spot so far it's been working here is about 10k hands i've played this month only a few days playing poker though."I would not call 5or6bb\100 destroying these limits,i wouldn't call my small sample here destroying these limits either."
Edit:What Jag said^

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You know I like sense. And 1 other thing to FX and all you other micro grinders who think because we play 100 - 400$ games we dont understand. Just shut up because how do you think we reached this stage? We played the same stakes you played at some point and we been through the same thing you been through and have learned from that so when we say something like that, we are not blowing smoke up your ass, we have gone and been through it.

just by making this thread it almost makes it mental in your head that 5nl is harder when you haven't even tried it. I just moved from 2nl to 5nl 2 weeks ago and if you just play your game you will do fine. /thread

There's a class war erupting!

can't we all just get along?


YouTube - "War" by Edwin Starr (Original Video - 1969)

We could get along if you dont disregard our advice because "you dont play 5nl"

Also coming from someone who plays the micros and have played a lot at them, 2NL, 5NL and 10NL. There is no substantial difference between them. This isn't coming from some 400NL player, but someone who has seen it firsthand. Now the real difference comes when you go from Facebook(which I personally can't understand why anyone would waste their time on) to any cash game. The biggest thing that YOU will notice when you're moving up is probably that you're getting scared to make the shoves you need to because of the fact that it is going to be for 2x+ more than you're used to shoving with and you're thinking about how long it may have taken you to build that up at your last level.

Also 30K hands isn't a big enough sample to really tell that you're destroying a level. It can tell you that you're doing well at the level, but I've seen many heaters and coolers that have lasted that long.

Another guy that has seen it firsthand and knows that there is no real difference.

Mayo and Jag know what they are talking about, they don't say things just to look down on you, shut up and listen to people who know from experience. You arguing with them but wanting others advice is like not taking advice from a pro basketball player on how to play, but listening to a first year middle school player on the topic...

I have played over 200,000 hands in .01-.02 over 82,000 hands .02-.05
and over 70,000 hands .5-.10 nl FR .I agree .2 .5 .10 so far is poker no diff. play your game make sure you have a big enough bankroll to feel comfortable when the beats come,Review your sessions afterwards. I wont say what i would suggest on how much of a bankroll to have each level because the flamers will show up, but more is better. play one type of game only Fr or 6max , dont mix up tables like some .1-.2 and some .2-.5 ,one or the other to keep your mind focused. If you lose 2.5-3 buy-ins stop that session,and review it, dont tilt dont tilt dont tilt. And good luck ..

Finally started playing 5nl over the last couple of days. Only a 1000 hands or so but I have to say that I don't see much difference. I'm still getting called down by people holding A3 offsuit or any 2 random suited cards. As long as I don't let the increased dollar amounts bother me I don't see a problem.

Of course it goes without saying 1K hands=lol sample size.

If you feel ready....take a shot......IMO I have to agrre with alaskabill in that I have not seen that much of a difference in play from 2NL to 5 or even 10NL..

Thanks for all the comments everyone, it's really great!I think this is very solid advise and one difference that could have an effect.

At 2NL I am jumping allin a lot, and asap. If for instance I have trips and see no danger, i go allin on the turn and find a lot of guys will follow with e.g. top pair and/or a draw and die.

When I move up I will probably stop doing that and go for value instead.

The question I think you should ask yourself is can I afford to play at this level and loose and if your answer is no then stay where you are still the answer is yes. The basic structure of the game does not change the higher you go but remember there are rich donks out there that can give there money away to you at the table but at the same time can fool the crap out of you and take your money. Luck has no respectable person!!!

Good Luck

Just move up, see how it goes. Makes sure you have a strong three bet game along with the ability to fold. Everyone set mines, no matter what the raise size is usually, and will call with ducks even to a three bet hoping to set up. Be prepared to lose sometimes and make sure the bankroll can handle 10 buy in swings that WILL happen. I have played almost 300,000 hands at 5NL, mostly rush.

Best advice, that I still struggle with is FOLD. There are better times and your bankroll will thank you for it.

Rush changes it all up because there are literally some players that will fold every hand until they get a pp or AK/AQ, and that is their entire range, and they won't let go of them preflop. The majority of players aren't playing that same style in a regular game, they are just playing damn near every hand.

You know what the greatest thing about this thread is? The fact that you same guys are going to be the ones telling the next group 6 months from now that there is no difference between 2nl and 5nl. At the same time you'll be starting threads about the huge difference between 10nl and 25nl.

It is the never ending cycle. I hope to be bitching about how rigged 200nl is soon enough.

I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?