Micro FR Study Group

New topic: I'll make a separate thread later with proper thought but I'm playing now and just want to put it out there.

When and why do we call 3bets pre-flop?

Quick answer:

1) to induce with big hands from bluff-heavy ranges (not that common at micros, and generally people who are hyper lag are likely to either call a 4bet or even 5bet shove)
2) with a range that doesn't do well when stacked should we 4bet it, but is too good to fold. ie AQs/JJ
3) to outplay postflop against predictable opponents. ie flat with QJs in a spot that's a fold against most regs, but someone who cbets lots and has some combination of folding well to raises or giving up turns easily, we take the appropriate action against.

Really though it's something I wouldn't suggest often for micro regs since 3bet ranges are going to be so tight that doing anything other than flatting QQ or AQs or whatever to a 3bet once in a while is probably a bit spewy.

in 21k hands of 2nl this year I've called 3bets 14% of the time or 31 times. Almost exclusively min-raises from giant fish. Winning at 1254bb/100 (lol) but am I leaving money on the table or should I just 4bet or fold against a 3x 3bet from anyone who's slightly competent?

You can call min 3bets wider obviously and VERY often you'll see min 3bets with big pairs from bad players, so set mining is fine with full stacks when facing a min raise.

The min 3 bet is my fave play that donks make. They're either really marginal hands or have a big pair so either way we should be callin IP. If OOP you can fold the weaker part of our PFR range, ie. steal attempts.

This thread is meant for study bro. If you want to post beats there is a whole forum for that here (http://www.cardschat.com/f46/)

If you have questions about the hands post them in the Cash Game Hand Analysis Forum here (http://www.cardschat.com/f50/)

I assume a post got deleted somewhere

Yeah, sure did. I meant to delete No Brainer's post as well but I missed it. Just some noob posting random beats. Nothing special.

Naa keep it there, it's good info and it can't hurt for people to find HA.

Hello everyone!
I'm a beginner trying to learn all i can about the game and hopefully someday go pro. Can anyone tell me what a micro is and what is an "FR?" I hate to sound stupid but, i guess i'm in the right place right? All comments are greatly appreciated. Thanks!

-Brian

Micro means small buyin games.
FR = Full Ring

Micro is generally regarded as stakes 2nl to 50nl. When I say 2nl it means that the Big Blind is $0.02 and a standard 100 Big Blind buy in = $2.

Full Ring means 9 player tables.

Bump^^^^ needed.There is a lot of new cash players to the forum, i think we need this thread back up and running.I know there is a bunch of individual threads,but there is still room for this thread to contribute to new players and old ones alike.

Joe's .02

I want to subscribe.

Alright then im up for the revival of this;

What im wondering is, lately ive moved to 25nl and am wondering if i have to be more picky with set mining opportunities? Up until now its generally been click the call button if the bet is around 20x smaller than villains effective stack, give or take a few of course.

Watching some videos on DTB ive noticed that players like Qtip tend to do a similar thing relying more on the stack sizes in comparison, but i was watching disco bisco? i think he's called, and he was very strict in calling with pocket pairs, especially when oop?

Is this just personal preference, maybe we can discuss the requirements for us to profitable set-mine and how this changes with relation to our opponents and position?

What i've been wondering is where the hell did everyone go on the skype group this weekend! I had a $40 session man and no-one was there to share it with!!!

Re: Setmining, I've been thinking about this myself, like when IP, calling in LP and then just folding most flops is something that i'm not comfortable with and i've been wondering about maybe 3betting some of my smaller pairs so that I can grab the initiative and take the pot down un-improved when I miss and would've had to just fold to a cbet.

OOP, in the blinds is the most common occurence of me wondering about set-mining oop, i usually don't mind an overcall, ie HJ opens 3x, BTN calls, i might call there to set-mine as we have that extra player in to poss give us their stack, but ive been wondering if this isn't a good idea either as c/fing a flop sucks and i feel like a fish when i have to do it lol
I've been thinking that the only good time to be set-mining OOP is when the original opener is opening and cbetting quite wide and can be c/r'd when we miss, adding to the value of the hand and making it so that we're not just playing for set-value

Suited one gappers could do the same here.The thing about set mining,C\R (with basically air here) vs this type of villain your really not set mining.With a villain that opens wide does not have a strong range to stack off with,and prob will fold to the c\r.Some one more math based than me could prob run the numbers.CO opens 20\17\4 Steal 30% Cbet 80% for 3bb we call in the BB with 44 board K84 two toned we check CO bets 4bb we C\R to 12-16bb he folds.

Think I agree with JOEBOB69 here.

I personally don't think of calling 55 on the button against a CO opener as setming per se. He's probably opening a wide range that won't necessarily stack off when we hit our set, unless he is very bad, or very unlucky (hits 2P), or actually has us beat. So here there will be other factors in play, like do I think the SB or BB will call, giving me more implied odds. Do I think I can take it away from the CO on the flop or turn? Point being, imo, you can't profitably setmine here, you have to have a bigger plan than fit or folding the flop.

Against a tight UTG opener and an MP caller, if I'm on the button with 55 I am ABSOLUTELY setmining. I hit the flop or I fold to a cbet. Sometimes if it goes check check I'll stab depending on the villains and board. If I suspect the villain is check calling, I'll check behind (obviously). If UTG is weak tight (fit or folding) then I'll defo stab, as MP would have done by the time it gets to me if he has anything, for example, a pair of balls

OOP, similar to the second scenario, I will call in the SB or BB with a tight UTG opener and MP caller, but only this time I have to wait until the turn card to stab at it, which is a little more risky. If the UTG opener is loose and MP called, I could even find a 3bet or fold OOP with 55.

What size of raise would would be optimal if you were playing small PP's opening from UTG & UTG+1. I play on FR9max. 10NL.

I dont bother raising small PP's from EP. Only have about 2k hands at 10nl FR on pokerstars but in my exp, at 5nl I would just get like multiple callers and be in a bad spot post flop if I don't flop a set pretty much.

I raise like 99+ in EP, if you open smaller your just gonna end up with an underpair to the board or a middle-ish pair and if you get any action its gonna be difficult to carry on.

Re: raise size, I open 4x +1 for each limper across the whole table, bar the BTN and sometimes the CO (depending on the BTN's tendancys) where i'll open 3x, saves that 1bb everytime i get 3bet and have to fold my 72o lol

I play 10nl at Pacific. Don't get many callers. Mostly 1 or 2 on any EP raise.

Hitting trips can be very valuable, I too don't have many hands ~5k. They are an easy fold to a flop bet. If it's HU they can be worth a cbet (depending on texture).

It's also Villian dependant.

4xraise means $2.80 cost when you don't hit the flop, Vs a very strong post flop hand that can have a good return. I wish I had enough of a sample size to look at the stats.

Let me see if i can blow the dust off this thread!
Ok lately i'm wondering if i've been giving villains to much credit on the flop.This has to do with TP\K kicker TP\A kicker-over pair i put them in the same class.My fall back as been less the AG factor the more willing i am to fold on the flop.I know it's hard to narrow this down but what i want to know is when do we fold over pair-top pair top kicker on the flop and if we call vs some ag what do we do on the turn?
I'm going to go over some EX. hands.
All these hands are effective stacks.

1)10nl UTG +1(22-18-2) raises to .30 fold's around to us in the CO we raise to $1.10 with KK.Flop 4s8hjc UTG+1 checks we bet $1.70 UTG+1 shoves.Hero?

2)10nl UTG(35-18-1) calls,fold,fold,button calls(21-18-2),SB(29-13-2) calls,we are in the BB with AA.We raise $.60 UTG calls,SB calls,button calls.Flop Jh2s7s SB checks we bet $1.20 UTG folds button raises to $4.00 SB folds Hero?

3)10nl Hero UTG with QQ raises to $.40,folds around to the BB calls (44-38-3).Flop 8h9s10h BB donks $.60 we raise to $1.80 BB shoves, Hero?

I'm just tring to get a better understanding on what type of villain with what type of board texture i should i be letting these hands go.

Good topic.

Hand 1 seems like it will almost never happen. I just dont see a 22/18/2 ever making that play. If they had a set/overpair/tptk would they really shove? The board is kinda dry and the only decent draw is T9 but does a 22/18 raise/call 3 bet with T9s UTG? This one would be tough but I think we'd have to call considering its a 3 bet pot.

Hand 2. Pretty sick spot because were getting raised in a multiway pot by a seemingly competent player. Villain is limping along OTB so 22 is really the only hand in his range that beats us here. I think we have to jam this flop.

Hand 3. I probably just call flop and re-evaluate on the turn. This seems like a BA/WB scenario. As played I think I fold and punch something.

I didn't want to tell the hand due to the cough, cough, discussion we would be having.No one thinks these spots are a problem i guess though.Villain had AA in this hand strange line he took for sure.

Ya, I thought this would get more action as well.

That is a strange line for a 22/18/2 player to make with AA. Losing value in the long run imo.

1) snap all day long. QQ/Jx/sometimes spazz with 99-TT/random bluff shoves

2) depends on villain, but if he's truly 22/18 then he's not going to have any draws in his range, he should have raised all his suited aces and connectors and basically has a set here a huge % of the time unless he's silly-aggro postflop.

3) +1 to what brank said. If we're raising it's with the intent of stacking flop which is a bit thin. Either way we should know what we're doing vs a shove after we raise. We should have thought of that before raising.

Should be a "standard hand thread" like on 2+2 where people can post un-threadworthy hands just to check lines. Seeing as we don't have one i'm going to post this here to find anything played differently. i.e bigger raise pre, raise turn or whatever..
Would you ever raise turn or is there no need?
PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($7.94)
UTG ($5.07)
Hero (MP) ($12.41)
CO ($9.08)
Button ($2.07)
SB ($13.48)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K, K
1 fold, Hero bets $0.20, 2 folds, SB calls $0.18, BB raises to $0.70, Hero raises to $2, 1 fold, BB calls $1.30

Flop: ($4.20) A, 2, A (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($4.20) K (2 players)
BB bets $2, Hero calls $2

River: ($8.20) 10 (2 players)
BB bets $3.94 (All-In), Hero calls $3.94

Total pot: $16.08 | Rake: $0.78

...reads?

looks like a standard line vs most opponents but we could b/c flop or raise turn or even fold somewhere depending on villain.

no real reads however over 35 hands 30/27 - AFq of 75 - AF of 3.6. 3bet 25% (4/16 opertunities). Its not really enough to draw conclusions.
However I'd be interested on why to bet/call (if thats what b/c means) flop may be an idea against a certain type of villian.

Mostly because they're never folding their underpairs, like TT-QQ or whatever, and you'll be priced in once they shove (since it's conceivable his range has FDs in it, as well as the underpairs, and the rare bluff).

I just want to say that I find this thread sexy. It turns me, just like rubbing orange marmalade on my nipples.