Micro 6max Study Group

There was another thread about this, but I'm gonna try and get one going again.

Let's talk about constant 3 betters. Since moving up to 25nl, it has become a major nuisance. I'm not talking about the 48/38 guys with a 3 bet of 20%. Those guys are pretty easy to beat. I'm talking about the standard TAG with a 24/20 and 3bet of 10%. What is the best way to deal with these guys when they are somewhere to your left. The easiest way is to obviously move tables, but if anybody plays on Merge now, you know that's not the easiest option.

Example, I open AJs from MP, they 3 bet on the button. You basically know they are 3betting light most of the time here, but where do you draw the line? Calling sucks, as you miss often and c/f which will bleed money. You can 4 bet which can suck if you get shoved on. Same thing with MPPs. I open 77,88,99 and get 3 bet. Is it ever profitable to call and setmine? I can't think it would be as he is 3betting wide, so even if you do hit your set, you're OOP and you probably won't get paid off since he range is wider.

The choices are easier if you have QQ+, but it doesn't happen nearly enough. Sometimes if I get 3 bet from these guys out of the blinds, and have a blocker hand, I will 4bet light and pick up the money right there. I'm still not sure if this is the best plan though.

Obv I'm in, but would like to hear some opinions on how to deal with the situation
(b4 C9 posts it)
Opponent's 3-bet Percentage Required to 4-bet/call off preflop for 100bb's.
* KK+: Good against any range
* QQ: vs 3% or higher
* JJ: vs 6.5% or higher
* TT: vs 8.5% or higher
* 99: vs 10.5% or higher
* 88: vs 12.5% or higher
* 77: vs 14% or higher
* AKs: vs 3% or higher
* AQs: vs 8% or higher
* AJs: vs 13% or higher
* AKo: vs 5% or higher
* AQo: vs 9% or higher

For guys who 3b light IP, I like sticking to these guidelines. But I'm not at 25 yet, so these may not be 100% correct for higher stakes

Those numbers are correct regardless of the stakes.

It works out regardless of the makeup of that %3 range, or villain's fold to 4bet%, or anything else.

If he 3bets the top %3 of hands ONLY, then you still profit (punch it into pokerstove). If he 3bets all air and folds %100 to 4bets, then it's still profitable to 4bet/stack because of all the dead money he leaves on the table.

There's quite a bit of 3bet/4bet material here on CC but I might write something up if it garners enough interest.

I'm 100% for Chuck writing up something on this

oh obv, why didnt we ever think of this????

You need to get a handle on what kind of hands they are 3-betting from what positions. A lot of these guys 3-bet more from the blinds and only 3-bet value hands on the button. Some are 3-betting a polarized range and some are 3-betting a wide value range.

Basically, playing 3-bet pots OOP with 88 sucks, so you should mostly be folding.

If they're 3-betting a polarized range, flat with hands that play well postflop even OOP, that includes your nut range QQ+/AK down to hands like AJs/KQs. If they're 3-betting a merged range, you can 4-bet and get it in based on the chart above.

Ok, if I'm reading it right, I open TT, 9% guy 3 bets, I 4bet, he jams, I can snap it off and be profitable long run?

Casinopig, I try and avoid having them on my left, but table selection isn't what it was on Full Tilt/Pokertars. And fish are getting farther and fewer in between. I am basically having to either play against 90% regs, or not play at all.

Yep. It may be possible to flat and play a 3bet pot more profitably, but the idea is that 4bet/stacking will be profitable regardless. Assuming 100bb effective obviously. Problem is that playing 3bet pots is difficult. 4bet/stacking requires no skill. Just 4bet and snap it.

What is your guys' min hand sample size to trust a stat like 3 bet%? I mean obv is you see someone showdown A3s from the blinds/BU you know what they are capable of...

Is this a good place to discuss calling ranges against specific opponents in position? I've sorted my opening range but calling range is one of my greatest doubts currently.

Nits I prefer to either 3bet a polarized range or just fold. But what would you call regs (25/22 24/20 kind of guys) when they are MP or CO? And fish? Just big hands?

bump

and also 100% wanting Chuck to make a post about it

3bet % isnt the only factor at play when deciding to do something like this

go on.......

Bump^^^^^.

I would like to talk about floating.What kind of villain\board texture are optimal for this move.What stats are we looking for to complete this move.
Example
1)villain is in the CO raises 3x VP$IP 26/PFR 20/AG 3.We on the button with 44 we flat.Board comes A 9 3.Villain c-bets 1\2 pot we look he c\bets flops 80% of the time,but cbets only 40% of the time is this a prime example of a float?
I would put in more examples but yall get the point i'm just looking for the correct stats\board to complete this play.Also should we play it different if we have very little value has to be compared to 100% complete air?

High cbet/low turn cbet, one and done type guys.
Have a plan for the hand, you going to bet or going to raise a double or check back if x hits turn or w.e.! Dont just float randomly because you'll just eat cbets and fold turns.
Floating with equity is important but not essential vs some players
Board textures that hit your perceived range so like KJ4 in your example would be one as your going to be flatting broadway type hands here etc.

sub

enlightening

OK, in your example above on the Axxr, he might pot control an Arag on the turn, so floating with the intention of taking it on the turn MIGHT require a river barrel too. I only say this because I see a lot of c/c @ 25nl with A5 and sh1t on the turn in this kind of spot ... !!! Heart sinking stuff when all you've got is a failed move, pocket 4s, and no strong idea where you are in the hand.

so maybe a raise/check raise would be better on Axx than floating??? Just an idea, what do you think?

Gonna bump my question.


Also. What do you guys consider a high "raise flop %" in the micros to be?

id probs say 500 or something min which gives abit of an indication

Think about what you're repping. Do you c/r AT there?

+1 to this lol. You would not believe the amount of 3betting + 4b that has been going on at 10NL recently and I don't know how to counter it effectively.

5bet light !

Nah, joking aside, I agree... the amount of 3betting is insane from some quarters. I think it's important to take a little look at your popup to see where they are 3betting from (i.e. positional 3bet %). For example, I find that some people 3bet ONLY from the SB (weird but true). Some people mainly from the BTN (smart) and some mainly from the BB (kinda smart). So, in terms of dealing with the situation, I always take a quick look at their positional 3bet stats before making a decision.

We both know that you already folded PF

Yep i've noticed this too. After reviewing some stats of some 3bet happy people at 10NL some of them have like 13% in SB, other 13% in BB and others are high OTB so a bit of light 4betting might be in order however when I do it I can't help but feel spewy.

Ah sorry i didn't see that we had AT, im not check raising AT there

Heres the Question i meant regarding someone we know who c-bets flop much more often than turn, so float opportunity; On Axx dry flops or Axx pretty dry but double suited flops would it be better to just raise opponents c-bet, or call his c-bet then try and get him off whatever he has when he checks to us on the turn, but potentially get called by a rag ace hand?

Lately ive been trying to find good spots to raise regulars c-bets and check raise more than i used too as it was something i rarely did.



Thinking about that question what are we repping when we c/r or raise on Axx's , sets and AK? or maybe draws if its a mono flop... I just hate trying to float someone and run into like A3 or something and not have enough power to get them to fold it by the river like cafeman said.

Well that's fine, but in general people aren't folding A3 to a flop raise either. They may fold by the river, but are you barreling turn/river after raising flop? I hope not. Also, I'm 3betting AK %100 of the time, so we're repping sets only pretty much. [Also, I didn't say we had AT, I was just using that hand to make a point: our flop raising range on Axx is basically sets, and nothing else.]

Point is it doesn't fit in with our overall range makeup. We can raise and get folds from KQ just as often as when we float, but what we rep doesn't make sense, and when he has something like TT and a jack turns we can get a lot more credibility to our play by floating and taking it away on the turn.

Basically when my cbet's raised on a dry Axx board by a taggy-ish player, I'm making a play almost always. I either click it back and get folds like %90 of the time, or float his c/r IP and take it away on the turn.

Pretty good sound advice.What if villain on the button is 22/18/4 steal 35%-cbet 75%-turn bet 50%(villain 3xpre) (we call)we have 10sJs in the SB.Flop comes Kh9c6h.How would we play this.Just C\F,float,C\R,,donk?

Thanks Chuck, thats all logical and i can see where my thinking was backwards!

Btw, when you say your c-bet gets raised on Axx dry board by a standard taggy reg, when you say you make a play almost always do you mean you 3bet him on the flop a lot of the time?

Now you've pointed it out on dry flops like that, all they are really repping is sets, would a min raise do the job or are we following through with our thought that villain is FOS and raising big and calling our stack off if we have to? (providing we have a hand)

Depends on villain. I may fold pf, may c/r flop, may donk it, etc. Depends on his pf range, his cbetting and barreling frequencies, how sticky he is postflop (with something like 9T or TT), etc. With your reads I think raising flop is probably my standard.

Say we have AK and the flop is A92r. If villain is "FOS", ie has a range full of bluffs and very few nut hands (sets only, based on our assumption), then what would be the purpose of reraising?

What I meant by 'making a play': We raise JTo in CO, get called by 23/19 BB. He checks A92r, we cbet 4bb into 6.5 pot, he raises to 12. I often either repop to like ~26-30bb, or float.

Nice. And if you have A6 in this spot you'd be looking to call him down?

Whilst we are on 3betting, whats your line for people who are 3betting wide and larger than normal?

im talking like 3x to 15x ...... never really come across this tbh but some regs seem to love to 3bet bigger with both value and bluffs (they fold to 4bets)
3bet %'s of between 7 - 13% in blinds varying between different regs.

Best line is tighten and 4bet for value abit wider 100 deep? Iv tried flatting once or twice but stack sizes just suck on the turn!
They arent 5bet shoving wider though so Im not sure on the math but we basically arent doing great vs 5bet shoving but make it up from when he folds yeah?
but this feels like turning out hand into bluffs? However I have seen them 5b jam AQ so that means our PPs have abit more equity?

Yeah im rambling abit but you get the picture

Great - I understand that raising AK there would be bad for us, the 'making a play' part is something i do not do enough, it seems like good spot to do it and it goes hand in hand with hand reading, definitely need to to a few seconds extra to make decisions from now on instead of going for the fold button always. Thanks Chuck.

Flatting when they make it that big is generally going to be a mistake. If they're really bluff-heavy and go crazy postflop, then flatting your monsters is fine, but anything speculative (AQ/QJs/TT) etc just leaves you with really awkward stack sizes and SPRs.

I tend to do exactly that - tighten up my flatting range considerably and 4bet for value accordingly. I'll also 4b bluff obv, but tbh the 3bet size makes it really awkward. We open 3x, he 3bets to 15bb...a 4b to 2.5x would be 37.5bb, which is just going to commit us with anything we're bluffing with. If we make it our typical ~23-26bb then it gives him a really good price to call.

tbh I tend to label people who 3bet that wide as bad regs or fish and just play accordingly (typically NOT 4bet bluffing).