| This is a discussion on May Stud, Stud Hi-Low, and Razz hands discussion within the online poker forums, in the Cash Games section; Post your stud game hands itt with any questions you may have. I've seen some posters mention they play stud, so here is your chance ... |
| | ||||||
![]() |
| |
|
#1 | ||||
| ||||
| May Stud, Stud Hi-Low, and Razz hands discussion Post your stud game hands itt with any questions you may have. I've seen some posters mention they play stud, so here is your chance to solicit feedback on any hands that may be puzzling you. |
| Play Texas Hold'em Online Poker | May Stud, Stud Hi-Low, and Razz hands discussion | |
|
|
|
#3 | ||||
| ||||
| Frank is a red pro. Why not raise 6th? Full Tilt Poker $10/$20 Limit Stud Hi/Lo $1.50 Ante - 3 players The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter 3rd Street: (0.45 SB) Frank Thompson: xx xx A ♥____Frank Thompson completes____Frank Thompson 3-bets____Frank Thompson calls huntinwobbit: xx xx Q ♠____huntinwobbit raises____huntinwobbit caps! Hero: A ♣ 6 ♣ 2 ♦___Hero brings in for $3___Hero calls___Hero calls 4th Street: (12.45 SB) (3 players) Frank Thompson: xx xx A ♥ J ♥____Frank Thompson bets huntinwobbit: xx xx Q ♠ K ♠____huntinwobbit calls Hero: A ♣ 6 ♣ 2 ♦ T ♣___Hero calls 5th Street: (7.725 BB) (3 players) Frank Thompson: xx xx A ♥ J ♥ K ♥____Frank Thompson bets huntinwobbit: xx xx Q ♠ K ♠ 4 ♦____huntinwobbit calls Hero: A ♣ 6 ♣ 2 ♦ T ♣ 5 ♣___Hero calls 6th Street: (10.725 BB) (3 players) Frank Thompson: xx xx A ♥ J ♥ K ♥ 6 ♥____Frank Thompson bets huntinwobbit: xx xx Q ♠ K ♠ 4 ♦ 7 ♠____huntinwobbit folds Hero: A ♣ 6 ♣ 2 ♦ T ♣ 5 ♣ 3 ♠___Hero calls 7th Street: (12.725 BB) (2 players) Frank Thompson: xx xx A ♥ J ♥ K ♥ 6 ♥ xx____Frank Thompson checks____Frank Thompson calls Hero: A ♣ 6 ♣ 2 ♦ T ♣ 5 ♣ 3 ♠ 8 ♣___Hero bets |
|
#5 | ||||
| ||||
| Quote:
Am I close? Edit: oops. Thought hero had the flush on 6th. Last edited by S93 : 7th May 2010 at 5:38 AM. |
|
#9 | ||||
| ||||
| Quote:
There is 1 clear mistake in the hand and possibly 2 depending on my read of the players. Here's a question for you: how frequently does he have a flush here on 6th street? How frequently does he have a low? A low draw that is potentially better than mine? What sort of equity do you think I have versus his range on 6th and versus the 2 of them on 5th? Even more simply, what kind of hand/range do you think these villains play this way given the action on 4th and 5th? Let's assume the red pro is competent and aggressive. Let's assume the other player is an unknown, but based on several hands played in this session, I would confidently say that he is not a winning regular and probably plays too many hands. |
|
#10 | ||||
| ||||
| Hmm, did a sim in propokertools, you're a 60/40 favorite on sixth street, and he can't have a made low on sixth. Not sure how to figure out the odds that he's made a flush on sixth? Having problems w the tools website, wasn't able to simulate a 3way hand, but I'm guessing you have more than ~37% equity on fifth street. On third, they're both likely to have paired their door cards, so QQ for wobbit and AA for Frank - meaning that if he has a flush on sixth, it's the other down card, right? So he's actually relatively unlikely to have the flush on sixth? Wobbit prob didn't improve on fourth or fifth (and obv folds on sixth), Frank may or may not have improved - but his most likely improvement is A's up? This also means that neither is likely to have a low draw at all? So, if all that's right (lol - that's a big assumption, since I'm new to this), why not raise fifth street when both are likely to put in an extra bet or more, and why not raise sixth when we've got the nut low plus redraws to the nut high? (i.e., those are my guesses for the 1 clear and 1 maybe mistakes lol) |
|
#13 | ||||
| ||||
| Hand Equity *A|Ah Jh Kh 6h 41.51% Ac 6c| 2d Tc 5c 3s 58.49% The equity doesn't change much whether I assume one of his hole cards is an A (wildcarding both hole cards makes it 59/41). I guess I need to go back and watch c9's vid to figure out how to calculate chances of making hands from a street/up cards/dead cards... |
|
#14 | ||||
| ||||
| re: May Stud, Stud Hi-Low, and Razz hands discussion poker Quote:
Frank's Range on 5th: AX, buried kings, two small hearts, two small cards with a heart. Possibly wider, since the pot is huge, and getting a fold or two would be pretty awesome with a hand like 4c5c_Ah that he might cap for value/deception on 3rd. But I think Frank's range is pretty heavily weighted to split aces, buried kings, low three flushes, the one combo of rolled up aces. Fish's Range on 5th: High hands for the most part (split queens). Buried kings, buried aces, rolled up qwainz all put in more action on 4th. I don't have the troutulator with me, but when I get back home, I'll crunch the numbers. |
|
#15 | ||||
| ||||
| And if you want chances of making a low... There are 15 cards left in the deck that give you a low (four 8's, four 7's, four 3's, three 4's), out of 29 that remain. Odds of you missing your low draw = (14/29)*(14/29) = 0.48^2 = 23% Thus, odds of hitting your low = 1-0.23 = 77% 77%/2 = 38.5% pot equity in a 3-way pot assuming no one else can make a low (which given the board cards on 5th, that's not a horrible assumption). Seems like a jam to me? EDIT - Apparently the excel count function doesn't like me. There's 41 cards remaining, not 29. You have a 60% shot at making your low by the river, 30% pot equity. Thus you need 6% equity in the high side in order to make your jam break even on 5th, and that seems pretty attainable. Last edited by c9h13no3 : 7th May 2010 at 8:33 PM. |
|
#16 | ||||
| ||||
| Simulation given what I think Frank's wide range is. Hard to find the syntax I wanted, and I think I got it right. Not sure about the Z Zh part, but meht it gets us in the ballpark. Hence why I think 5th is a turbo raise. Last edited by c9h13no3 : 7th May 2010 at 11:11 PM. |
|
#17 | ||||
| ||||
| 5th Street I think on 5th, a reasonable range for the pro is Ace with any other card, flush cards in the hole, 2 low cards, and any pair in the hole. For the fish, I think he most likely has split queens, or a spade draw. He may also have a pair looking to make trips, but that actually doesn't make much difference in terms of equities on 5th street. Given he doesn't jam on 4th, he is unlikely to have the flush draw. This does not affect my equity much. At any rate, our equity is about 50% and I need to be jamming 5th. The odds of making a low by 7th are great. As c9 pointed out, we can calculate the odds of not making it and subtract that from 1. So missing on 6th: 41 cards left (we don't count their unknown hole cards) 15 make us a low or 26/41 don't. And then on 7th, 1 bad card less (which we got on 6th street) gives us 25/40 chance of not making it. (26/41)(25/40) => 60.4% chance of making our low. |
|
#18 | ||||
| ||||
| Similarly for 6th we have 57.6% equity vs his range and should raise/call. If he 3bets us, we may be getting freerolled (he has an unbeatable flush and a chance at a better low) and should probably just call and not cap, but the equity sim calls for at least putting in the initial raise on 6th. So, overall I'd say I missed a lot of value in this hand, regardless of the results. |
|
#20 | ||||
| ||||
| Stud Hi-Low Hand of the Day May 8th What's your plan here? Full Tilt Poker $5/$10 Limit Stud Hi/Lo $1 Ante - 6 players - The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter 3rd Street: (1.2 SB) coenan: xx xx Q ♣____coenan folds reerob: xx xx 3 ♥____reerob brings in for $1.50____reerob folds Lugnuts: xx xx 8 ♦____Lugnuts completes____Lugnuts calls Obelix50: xx xx A ♦____Obelix50 raises formmaker: xx xx 8 ♣____formmaker folds Hero: 5 ♣ 2 ♠ 6 ♦___Hero calls 4th Street: (7.5 SB) (3 players) Lugnuts: xx xx 8 ♦ A ♠____Lugnuts folds Obelix50: xx xx A ♦ A ♥____Obelix50 bets Hero: 5 ♣ 2 ♠ 6 ♦ 8 ♥___Hero calls 5th Street: (4.75 BB) (2 players) Obelix50: xx xx A ♦ A ♥ 5 ♠____Obelix50 bets Hero: 5 ♣ 2 ♠ 6 ♦ 8 ♥ 7 ♠ |
|
#21 | ||||
| ||||
| re: May Stud, Stud Hi-Low, and Razz hands discussion poker Been meaning to get to this hand skold, though I admit I was hoping someone else would take a crack (well, not c9, since he'd just solve it immediately) so I wouldn't have to further demonstrate my staggering ignorance of all things stud... On 3rd, Obelix's range is AAx, flush draws, low draws, and combinations of the above. On 4th, his range is more heavily weighted to AA's up, AA w low draws, and AA w fd's (AAA discounted because of the As). On 5th, his low draws benefit and AA's up are a continued concern. We currently have the low, not a great one, our straight outs are all live, if Villain has a full house his chances of making a low are slim. Can we raise here w our made one way hand w straight outs, planning on betting/raising 6th if Obelix picks up a card higher than an 8, same for 7th if we've made our straight by then? |
|
#23 | ||||
| ||||
| they have a key on propokertools.com * * | Ks - any two hole cards and Ks up *s *s | Ks - two spades in hole with Ks up Js Qs | Ks - Js, Qs, Ks Js Qs Ks - Also Js, Qs, Ks - no pipe needed if all cards exact J Q | Ks - any jack and queen with Ks 9+ 9+ | Ks - two cards nine or higher with Ks 9+s 9+s | Ks - two spades nine or higher with Ks 88-QQ | Ks - 88, 99, TT, JJ, or QQ with Ks 22-AA, *s *s| Ks 2c Ts - pair, trips, or flush draw on fifth street 22-AA, *s *s| Ks 2c Ts 8h | *d, *h - Red card flashed on river B M | Ks - a big (A,K,Q,J) and middle (T,9,8,7) card with Ks Z L | Ks - a small (6,5,4,3,2) and "low" (A,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) card with Ks N W | Ks - a "no-low" (K,Q,J,T,9) and wheel (A,2,3,4,5) card with Ks |
|
#26 | ||||
| ||||
| Hmmm, so here are the ranges. I'm not bothering w the fh (and yeah, I see that the fh + low is impossible, duh ). Stud Hi/Lo Simulation What's this? 600,000 trials (Randomized) Hand Equity Scoops 5c 2s | 6d 8h 7s 57.60% 159,655 LL, BB, 99+, *d *d | Ad Ah 5s 42.40% 68,215 2+2 · Deuces Cracked I think I'm being generous to our hand by giving him broadway cards in the hole? But even removing them keeps us as a 56/44 favorite, and scooping 2/3 of the time. So this is a clear raise for value on fifth street, right? If we make our straight on 6th or 7th, we become a huge favorite against that range even if he picks up a low card or the case A, so we're shoveling money in the pot. We can't be beat both ways if we make our straight, right? And there's a very strong chance we're scooping. So no need to worry if he starts capping? If we brick 6th and he picks up any low card, his hand becomes a 61/39 favorite and scoops 75% of the time, so in that event we would call 6th given pot odds. If we brick 7th as well, we can't find a fold given pot odds, can we? fwiw, I'm having problems w propokertools, some of the controls on the page won't work in my browser - so, for example, no dead cards are included in the sim, I'm also unable to input more than 2 hands. I'm going to post in SQA and see if one of the computer gurus has a suggestion... |
|
#27 | ||||
| ||||
| ProPokerTools Stud Hi/Lo Simulation 363,485 trials (Randomized) dead cards: 8♣ 3♥ Q♣ Hand (Pot equity) 5c 2s 6d 8h (37.85%) A *, K K, J J, L L | Ad Ah (62.15%) In a smaller pot, I'd fold 4th. I think 3rd street is a little suspect too, calling two cold from an ace with a trey missing, without a high hand in the pot. But I'd probably make that call as well. I'd consider raising 5th against timid opponents, and calling vs. aggressive ones. If we catch a nine or four, and our opponent will keep betting, I'd much rather put two bets in on that street, rather than on this one that's pretty thin value. I'd generally lean towards flatting 5th though, as the edge is pretty thin and we can raise later in the hand on most 6th streets. |
|
#29 | ||||
| ||||
| The fish do funny things after I re-raise them with a Q up... *** 3rd STREET *** Reg - Pocket [H H 5c] Fish #1 - Pocket [H H As] C9H13NO3 - Pocket [4h 3d Qh] Bad Reg - Pocket [H H Js] C9H13NO3 - Bring-In $0.50 Bad Reg - Folds Reg - Folds Fish #1 - Raises $1 to $1 C9H13NO3 - Raises $1.50 to $2 Fish #1 - Raises $2 to $3 C9H13NO3 - Calls $1 *** 4TH STREET *** Fish #1 - Pocket [H H As Ah] C9H13NO3 - Pocket [4h 3d Qh 5h] C9H13NO3 - Bets $1 Fish #1 - Calls $1 *** 5TH STREET *** Fish #1 - Pocket [H H As Ah Jh] C9H13NO3 - Pocket [4h 3d Qh 5h 4d] C9H13NO3 - Bets $2 Fish #1 - Calls $2 *** 6TH STREET *** Fish #1 - Pocket [H H As Ah Jh 2h] C9H13NO3 - Pocket [4h 3d Qh 5h 4d 10h] C9H13NO3 - Bets $2 Fish #1 - Calls $2 *** RIVER *** Fish #1 - Pocket [H H As Ah Jh 2h H] C9H13NO3 - Pocket [4h 3d Qh 5h 4d 10h 6s] C9H13NO3 - Checks Fish #1 - Checks *** SHOW DOWN *** C9H13NO3 - Shows [4h 3d Qh 5h 4d 10h 6s] (10,6,5,4,3) Fish #1 - Mucks C9H13NO3 Collects $15.65 from main pot *** SUMMARY *** Total Pot($16.40) | Rake ($0.75) Seat 2: Reg Folded on the 3rd STREET Seat 3: Fish #1 [Mucked] [Qc 3s As Ah Jh 2h 3h] |
|
#32 | ||||
| ||||
| Quote:
|
|
#33 | ||||
| ||||
| Question on stats - what stats (if any) should I be paying attention to? I realize the game is much more situational than NLHE and even PLO, so... I have 3K hands in at Stud Hi now - my VPIP is 21, 3rd Street raise 11, 2.88 BB/100, WTSD 22%, W$SD 59%. This is mostly at $.50/1 (super super super loose passive tables), 500 hands at 1/2 (mostly loose passive). Since the sample size is small (and since I was totally clueless for the first 1K hands), I'm not expecting real feedback on these stats, but wondering if these are the stats I should be looking at, and if there are others. |
|
#34 | ||||
| ||||
| I think that there is a range of styles that work profitably. Some guys are loose (like 35-40 vpip) and able to let go of hands early and do quite well. Some are tighter (15-22) and do well. I'm out of town, so I can't check my stats, but I tend toward neutral in the tight-loose category. |
|
#35 | ||||
| ||||
| re: May Stud, Stud Hi-Low, and Razz hands discussion poker Great thread going to b following and post hands also. I recently started to play stud. I got into it through 7 game mix. I kno i am not very good at forms of stud with the except of razz. I kno i will benefit from this thread so thanks for starting it!!! |
Number of Posts: 46
Number of Authors: 9