May Stud, Stud Hi-Low, and Razz hands discussion

#1 5th May 2010, 8:59 PM

Post your stud game hands itt with any questions you may have.

I've seen some posters mention they play stud, so here is your chance to solicit feedback on any hands that may be puzzling you.

#2 5th May 2010, 11:23 PM

Oooh, time to dig up some of my old stud/8 hands.

#3 7th May 2010, 5:11 AM

Frank is a red pro. Why not raise 6th?

Full Tilt Poker $10/$20 Limit Stud Hi/Lo $1.50 Ante - 3 players
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

3rd Street: (0.45 SB)
Frank Thompson: xx xx A ♥____Frank Thompson completes____Frank Thompson 3-bets____Frank Thompson calls
huntinwobbit: xx xx Q ♠____huntinwobbit raises____huntinwobbit caps!
Hero: A ♣ 6 ♣ 2 ♦___Hero brings in for $3___Hero calls___Hero calls

4th Street: (12.45 SB) (3 players)
Frank Thompson: xx xx A ♥ J ♥____Frank Thompson bets
huntinwobbit: xx xx Q ♠ K ♠____huntinwobbit calls
Hero: A ♣ 6 ♣ 2 ♦ T ♣___Hero calls

5th Street: (7.725 BB) (3 players)
Frank Thompson: xx xx A ♥ J ♥ K ♥____Frank Thompson bets
huntinwobbit: xx xx Q ♠ K ♠ 4 ♦____huntinwobbit calls
Hero: A ♣ 6 ♣ 2 ♦ T ♣ 5 ♣___Hero calls

6th Street: (10.725 BB) (3 players)
Frank Thompson: xx xx A ♥ J ♥ K ♥ 6 ♥____Frank Thompson bets
huntinwobbit: xx xx Q ♠ K ♠ 4 ♦ 7 ♠____huntinwobbit folds
Hero: A ♣ 6 ♣ 2 ♦ T ♣ 5 ♣ 3 ♠___Hero calls

7th Street: (12.725 BB) (2 players)
Frank Thompson: xx xx A ♥ J ♥ K ♥ 6 ♥ xx____Frank Thompson checks____Frank Thompson calls
Hero: A ♣ 6 ♣ 2 ♦ T ♣ 5 ♣ 3 ♠ 8 ♣___Hero bets

#4 7th May 2010, 5:17 AM

subscribing...

#5 7th May 2010, 5:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skoldpadda

Frank is a red pro. Why not raise 6th?

Full Tilt Poker $10/$20 Limit Stud Hi/Lo $1.50 Ante - 3 players
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

3rd Street: (0.45 SB)
Frank Thompson: xx xx A ♥____Frank Thompson completes____Frank Thompson 3-bets____Frank Thompson calls
huntinwobbit: xx xx Q ♠____huntinwobbit raises____huntinwobbit caps!
Hero: A ♣ 6 ♣ 2 ♦___Hero brings in for $3___Hero calls___Hero calls

4th Street: (12.45 SB) (3 players)
Frank Thompson: xx xx A ♥ J ♥____Frank Thompson bets
huntinwobbit: xx xx Q ♠ K ♠____huntinwobbit calls
Hero: A ♣ 6 ♣ 2 ♦ T ♣___Hero calls

5th Street: (7.725 BB) (3 players)
Frank Thompson: xx xx A ♥ J ♥ K ♥____Frank Thompson bets
huntinwobbit: xx xx Q ♠ K ♠ 4 ♦____huntinwobbit calls
Hero: A ♣ 6 ♣ 2 ♦ T ♣ 5 ♣___Hero calls

6th Street: (10.725 BB) (3 players)
Frank Thompson: xx xx A ♥ J ♥ K ♥ 6 ♥____Frank Thompson bets
huntinwobbit: xx xx Q ♠ K ♠ 4 ♦ 7 ♠____huntinwobbit folds
Hero: A ♣ 6 ♣ 2 ♦ T ♣ 5 ♣ 3 ♠___Hero calls

7th Street: (12.725 BB) (2 players)
Frank Thompson: xx xx A ♥ J ♥ K ♥ 6 ♥ xx____Frank Thompson checks____Frank Thompson calls
Hero: A ♣ 6 ♣ 2 ♦ T ♣ 5 ♣ 3 ♠ 8 ♣___Hero bets

Not sure but my guess would be because A)even if he just has a 4card FD its still better then yours and he has alot of equity B) Raising turns your hand face up since your never raising with worse then a flush into that board and C)When we are behind, which should be a fair amount of the time were drawing dead so keeping the pot small is good.
Am I close?

Edit: oops. Thought hero had the flush on 6th.

#6 7th May 2010, 3:23 PM

I'll post my thoughts tonight and give a bit more time for more responses.

Play around with propokertools.com and any thoughts you might have on this hand.

#7 7th May 2010, 3:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S93

Edit: oops. Thought hero had the flush on 6th.

What? You can't tell the slightly scrunched up black spot from the slightly rounded edge scrunched up black spot?!!

#8 7th May 2010, 3:55 PM

I'll take a shot - because you're almost certainly chopping at that point and you won't fold him off of anything?

#9 7th May 2010, 4:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slycbnew

I'll take a shot - because you're almost certainly chopping at that point and you won't fold him off of anything?

My intention here is to post a hand that actually has some surprising results to the untrained eye. Hint: I may have even played it sub-optimally. I still make mistakes even if I'm a winning player.

There is 1 clear mistake in the hand and possibly 2 depending on my read of the players.

Here's a question for you: how frequently does he have a flush here on 6th street? How frequently does he have a low? A low draw that is potentially better than mine?

What sort of equity do you think I have versus his range on 6th and versus the 2 of them on 5th?

Even more simply, what kind of hand/range do you think these villains play this way given the action on 4th and 5th?

Let's assume the red pro is competent and aggressive. Let's assume the other player is an unknown, but based on several hands played in this session, I would confidently say that he is not a winning regular and probably plays too many hands.

#10 7th May 2010, 5:06 PM

Hmm, did a sim in propokertools, you're a 60/40 favorite on sixth street, and he can't have a made low on sixth. Not sure how to figure out the odds that he's made a flush on sixth? Having problems w the tools website, wasn't able to simulate a 3way hand, but I'm guessing you have more than ~37% equity on fifth street.

On third, they're both likely to have paired their door cards, so QQ for wobbit and AA for Frank - meaning that if he has a flush on sixth, it's the other down card, right? So he's actually relatively unlikely to have the flush on sixth? Wobbit prob didn't improve on fourth or fifth (and obv folds on sixth), Frank may or may not have improved - but his most likely improvement is A's up? This also means that neither is likely to have a low draw at all?

So, if all that's right (lol - that's a big assumption, since I'm new to this), why not raise fifth street when both are likely to put in an extra bet or more, and why not raise sixth when we've got the nut low plus redraws to the nut high? (i.e., those are my guesses for the 1 clear and 1 maybe mistakes lol)

#11 7th May 2010, 5:14 PM

I'm raising 5th. I'd expect the fish to put in more action with rollies on 4th, so we're likely up against a pair of aces and a lower pair.

I just can't figure out a scenario on 6th where #3 and a flush draw isn't the favorite here over a range of aces & such.

#12 7th May 2010, 5:43 PM

Post your sims with the ranges you're including. What hands can you eliminate from their ranges based on the action (besides QQQ for example)?

Look at 5th and 6th.

What are my chances of making a low by 7th with the hands shown on 5th?

#13 7th May 2010, 6:59 PM

Hand Equity

*A|Ah Jh Kh 6h 41.51%
Ac 6c| 2d Tc 5c 3s 58.49%

The equity doesn't change much whether I assume one of his hole cards is an A (wildcarding both hole cards makes it 59/41).

I guess I need to go back and watch c9's vid to figure out how to calculate chances of making hands from a street/up cards/dead cards...

#14 7th May 2010, 8:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skoldpadda

What hands can you eliminate from their ranges based on the action (besides QQQ for example)?

I'm not sure how aggressive Frank is, and if he'll fire 4th & 5th with a hand like 4x5h_Ah Jh Kh, but given how poorly his opponent's boards are developing, it wouldn't be terrible to just keep bangin' away with a pretty wide range.

Frank's Range on 5th: AX, buried kings, two small hearts, two small cards with a heart. Possibly wider, since the pot is huge, and getting a fold or two would be pretty awesome with a hand like 4c5c_Ah that he might cap for value/deception on 3rd. But I think Frank's range is pretty heavily weighted to split aces, buried kings, low three flushes, the one combo of rolled up aces.

Fish's Range on 5th: High hands for the most part (split queens). Buried kings, buried aces, rolled up qwainz all put in more action on 4th.

I don't have the troutulator with me, but when I get back home, I'll crunch the numbers.

#15 7th May 2010, 8:27 PM

And if you want chances of making a low...

There are 15 cards left in the deck that give you a low (four 8's, four 7's, four 3's, three 4's), out of 29 that remain.

Odds of you missing your low draw = (14/29)*(14/29) = 0.48^2 = 23%
Thus, odds of hitting your low = 1-0.23 = 77%

77%/2 = 38.5% pot equity in a 3-way pot assuming no one else can make a low (which given the board cards on 5th, that's not a horrible assumption). Seems like a jam to me?

EDIT - Apparently the excel count function doesn't like me.

There's 41 cards remaining, not 29. You have a 60% shot at making your low by the river, 30% pot equity. Thus you need 6% equity in the high side in order to make your jam break even on 5th, and that seems pretty attainable.

#16 7th May 2010, 11:05 PM

Simulation given what I think Frank's wide range is.

Hard to find the syntax I wanted, and I think I got it right. Not sure about the Z Zh part, but meht it gets us in the ballpark. Hence why I think 5th is a turbo raise.

#17 8th May 2010, 12:49 AM

5th Street

I think on 5th, a reasonable range for the pro is Ace with any other card, flush cards in the hole, 2 low cards, and any pair in the hole.

For the fish, I think he most likely has split queens, or a spade draw. He may also have a pair looking to make trips, but that actually doesn't make much difference in terms of equities on 5th street. Given he doesn't jam on 4th, he is unlikely to have the flush draw. This does not affect my equity much.

At any rate, our equity is about 50% and I need to be jamming 5th.

The odds of making a low by 7th are great. As c9 pointed out, we can calculate the odds of not making it and subtract that from 1.

So missing on 6th: 41 cards left (we don't count their unknown hole cards) 15 make us a low or 26/41 don't.
And then on 7th, 1 bad card less (which we got on 6th street) gives us 25/40 chance of not making it.
(26/41)(25/40) => 60.4% chance of making our low.

#18 8th May 2010, 12:55 AM

Similarly for 6th we have 57.6% equity vs his range and should raise/call. If he 3bets us, we may be getting freerolled (he has an unbeatable flush and a chance at a better low) and should probably just call and not cap, but the equity sim calls for at least putting in the initial raise on 6th.

So, overall I'd say I missed a lot of value in this hand, regardless of the results.

#19 8th May 2010, 2:14 AM

Great discussion, thanks.

#20 8th May 2010, 8:57 PM

What's your plan here?

Full Tilt Poker $5/$10 Limit Stud Hi/Lo $1 Ante - 6 players -
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

3rd Street: (1.2 SB)
coenan: xx xx Q ♣____coenan folds
reerob: xx xx 3 ♥____reerob brings in for $1.50____reerob folds
Lugnuts: xx xx 8 ♦____Lugnuts completes____Lugnuts calls
Obelix50: xx xx A ♦____Obelix50 raises
formmaker: xx xx 8 ♣____formmaker folds
Hero: 5 ♣ 2 ♠ 6 ♦___Hero calls

4th Street: (7.5 SB) (3 players)
Lugnuts: xx xx 8 ♦ A ♠____Lugnuts folds
Obelix50: xx xx A ♦ A ♥____Obelix50 bets
Hero: 5 ♣ 2 ♠ 6 ♦ 8 ♥___Hero calls

5th Street: (4.75 BB) (2 players)
Obelix50: xx xx A ♦ A ♥ 5 ♠____Obelix50 bets
Hero: 5 ♣ 2 ♠ 6 ♦ 8 ♥ 7 ♠

#21 10th May 2010, 4:40 AM

Been meaning to get to this hand skold, though I admit I was hoping someone else would take a crack (well, not c9, since he'd just solve it immediately) so I wouldn't have to further demonstrate my staggering ignorance of all things stud...

On 3rd, Obelix's range is AAx, flush draws, low draws, and combinations of the above. On 4th, his range is more heavily weighted to AA's up, AA w low draws, and AA w fd's (AAA discounted because of the As). On 5th, his low draws benefit and AA's up are a continued concern.

We currently have the low, not a great one, our straight outs are all live, if Villain has a full house his chances of making a low are slim. Can we raise here w our made one way hand w straight outs, planning on betting/raising 6th if Obelix picks up a card higher than an 8, same for 7th if we've made our straight by then?

#22 10th May 2010, 4:43 AM

P.S. I'm used to using propokertools for omaha, but am not getting the conventions for wildcarding in propokertools or twodimes.net for stud - any link you can point me to?

#23 10th May 2010, 5:41 AM

they have a key on propokertools.com

* * | Ks - any two hole cards and Ks up
*s *s | Ks - two spades in hole with Ks up
Js Qs | Ks - Js, Qs, Ks
Js Qs Ks - Also Js, Qs, Ks - no pipe needed if all cards exact
J Q | Ks - any jack and queen with Ks
9+ 9+ | Ks - two cards nine or higher with Ks
9+s 9+s | Ks - two spades nine or higher with Ks
88-QQ | Ks - 88, 99, TT, JJ, or QQ with Ks
22-AA, *s *s| Ks 2c Ts - pair, trips, or flush draw on fifth street
22-AA, *s *s| Ks 2c Ts 8h | *d, *h - Red card flashed on river
B M | Ks - a big (A,K,Q,J) and middle (T,9,8,7) card with Ks
Z L | Ks - a small (6,5,4,3,2) and "low" (A,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) card with Ks
N W | Ks - a "no-low" (K,Q,J,T,9) and wheel (A,2,3,4,5) card with Ks

#24 10th May 2010, 5:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slycbnew

if Villain has a full house it is impossible for him to make a low

FYP. This is important. The best high you can have with a low is a Ten high straight flush! DUCY?

#25 10th May 2010, 5:44 AM

Put him on a range and then run the sim. Then you can decide whether raising here is profitable.

#26 10th May 2010, 7:30 AM

Hmmm, so here are the ranges. I'm not bothering w the fh (and yeah, I see that the fh + low is impossible, duh ).

Stud Hi/Lo Simulation What's this?
600,000 trials (Randomized)
Hand Equity Scoops
5c 2s | 6d 8h 7s 57.60% 159,655
LL, BB, 99+, *d *d | Ad Ah 5s 42.40% 68,215
2+2 · Deuces Cracked

I think I'm being generous to our hand by giving him broadway cards in the hole? But even removing them keeps us as a 56/44 favorite, and scooping 2/3 of the time. So this is a clear raise for value on fifth street, right?

If we make our straight on 6th or 7th, we become a huge favorite against that range even if he picks up a low card or the case A, so we're shoveling money in the pot. We can't be beat both ways if we make our straight, right? And there's a very strong chance we're scooping. So no need to worry if he starts capping?

If we brick 6th and he picks up any low card, his hand becomes a 61/39 favorite and scoops 75% of the time, so in that event we would call 6th given pot odds. If we brick 7th as well, we can't find a fold given pot odds, can we?

fwiw, I'm having problems w propokertools, some of the controls on the page won't work in my browser - so, for example, no dead cards are included in the sim, I'm also unable to input more than 2 hands. I'm going to post in SQA and see if one of the computer gurus has a suggestion...

#27 10th May 2010, 8:28 PM

ProPokerTools Stud Hi/Lo Simulation
363,485 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: 8♣ 3♥ Q♣

Hand (Pot equity)
5c 2s 6d 8h (37.85%)
A *, K K, J J, L L | Ad Ah (62.15%)

In a smaller pot, I'd fold 4th. I think 3rd street is a little suspect too, calling two cold from an ace with a trey missing, without a high hand in the pot. But I'd probably make that call as well.

I'd consider raising 5th against timid opponents, and calling vs. aggressive ones. If we catch a nine or four, and our opponent will keep betting, I'd much rather put two bets in on that street, rather than on this one that's pretty thin value. I'd generally lean towards flatting 5th though, as the edge is pretty thin and we can raise later in the hand on most 6th streets.

#28 11th May 2010, 12:23 PM

fwiw, wizzim has a razz hand posted in HA, and I posted a stud hand.

#29 12th May 2010, 7:46 AM

The fish do funny things after I re-raise them with a Q up...

*** 3rd STREET ***
Reg - Pocket [H H 5c]
Fish #1 - Pocket [H H As]
C9H13NO3 - Pocket [4h 3d Qh]
Bad Reg - Pocket [H H Js]
C9H13NO3 - Bring-In $0.50
Bad Reg - Folds
Reg - Folds
Fish #1 - Raises $1 to $1
C9H13NO3 - Raises $1.50 to $2
Fish #1 - Raises $2 to $3
C9H13NO3 - Calls $1
*** 4TH STREET ***
Fish #1 - Pocket [H H As Ah]
C9H13NO3 - Pocket [4h 3d Qh 5h]
C9H13NO3 - Bets $1
Fish #1 - Calls $1
*** 5TH STREET ***
Fish #1 - Pocket [H H As Ah Jh]
C9H13NO3 - Pocket [4h 3d Qh 5h 4d]
C9H13NO3 - Bets $2
Fish #1 - Calls $2
*** 6TH STREET ***
Fish #1 - Pocket [H H As Ah Jh 2h]
C9H13NO3 - Pocket [4h 3d Qh 5h 4d 10h]
C9H13NO3 - Bets $2
Fish #1 - Calls $2
*** RIVER ***
Fish #1 - Pocket [H H As Ah Jh 2h H]
C9H13NO3 - Pocket [4h 3d Qh 5h 4d 10h 6s]
C9H13NO3 - Checks
Fish #1 - Checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
C9H13NO3 - Shows [4h 3d Qh 5h 4d 10h 6s] (10,6,5,4,3)
Fish #1 - Mucks
C9H13NO3 Collects $15.65 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($16.40) | Rake ($0.75)
Seat 2: Reg Folded on the 3rd STREET
Seat 3: Fish #1 [Mucked] [Qc 3s As Ah Jh 2h 3h]

#30 12th May 2010, 2:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slycbnew

fwiw, wizzim has a razz hand posted in HA, and I posted a stud hand.

Sorry, didn't realise this was here

#31 12th May 2010, 9:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slycbnew

fwiw, wizzim has a razz hand posted in HA, and I posted a stud hand.

I'm going to post my ideas on my hand after work today and then I'll look at both of those and give my input.

#32 13th May 2010, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skoldpadda

What's your plan here?

Full Tilt Poker $5/$10 Limit Stud Hi/Lo $1 Ante - 6 players -
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

3rd Street: (1.2 SB)
coenan: xx xx Q ♣____coenan folds
reerob: xx xx 3 ♥____reerob brings in for $1.50____reerob folds
Lugnuts: xx xx 8 ♦____Lugnuts completes____Lugnuts calls
Obelix50: xx xx A ♦____Obelix50 raises
formmaker: xx xx 8 ♣____formmaker folds
Hero: 5 ♣ 2 ♠ 6 ♦___Hero calls

4th Street: (7.5 SB) (3 players)
Lugnuts: xx xx 8 ♦ A ♠____Lugnuts folds
Obelix50: xx xx A ♦ A ♥____Obelix50 bets
Hero: 5 ♣ 2 ♠ 6 ♦ 8 ♥___Hero calls

There's a lot of info in this street. 1st, what would lugnuts complete with on 3rd and then fold 4th? Diamond draw seems less likely since 2 diamonds are dead on 3rd. 88x same reasoning. He sure doesn't have an ace in the hole or he wouldn't fold 4th. He could have a pair. It's doubtful he has low cards or he'd likely peel 4th.

Obelix can have Ax (3 betting 3rd) or possibly any decent wheel draw on 3rd, maybe with a diamond. Additionally, he may have any wired pair but since he raised 3rd after an 8 completed, I think he's more likely to have 88-KK than 77 or below. Although a flush draw is possible, I think it's much less likely as per above. When I hit an 8 on 4th, I think it's most likely Ax, 99-KK, or a good low draw.

This also tells me that my 7's are probably live and if I hit a 7 or 4 on 5th street, I will have a 2 way straight draw and a great chance of winning extra bets vs his open AA (i.e. great implied odds with a chance to win 4.5BB or more) and losing no more than 2.5 BB (calling 4th-6th). So I'm peeling here everytime, regardless of the sims. I really don't even need 40% equity here given these circumstances. Nonetheless, I have 38-39%.

5th Street: (4.75 BB) (2 players)
Obelix50: xx xx A ♦ A ♥ 5 ♠____Obelix50 bets
Hero: 5 ♣ 2 ♠ 6 ♦ 8 ♥ 7 ♠

Now that I'm open ended, I'm an equity favorite vs his range. If I had bricked 5th, then I fold and just lose 0.5 BB. But now, I'm happy to jam it and hope I hit for the scoop.

#33 15th May 2010, 7:49 AM

Question on stats - what stats (if any) should I be paying attention to? I realize the game is much more situational than NLHE and even PLO, so...

I have 3K hands in at Stud Hi now - my VPIP is 21, 3rd Street raise 11, 2.88 BB/100, WTSD 22%, W$SD 59%. This is mostly at $.50/1 (super super super loose passive tables), 500 hands at 1/2 (mostly loose passive).

Since the sample size is small (and since I was totally clueless for the first 1K hands), I'm not expecting real feedback on these stats, but wondering if these are the stats I should be looking at, and if there are others.

#34 15th May 2010, 6:02 PM

I think that there is a range of styles that work profitably. Some guys are loose (like 35-40 vpip) and able to let go of hands early and do quite well. Some are tighter (15-22) and do well. I'm out of town, so I can't check my stats, but I tend toward neutral in the tight-loose category.

#35 21st May 2010, 10:43 PM

Great thread going to b following and post hands also. I recently started to play stud. I got into it through 7 game mix. I kno i am not very good at forms of stud with the except of razz. I kno i will benefit from this thread so thanks for starting it!!!

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