May stats over 5k hands, any obvious leaks?

#1 15th January 2010, 4:28 AM

My sample is actually 15k and my winnings have been fluctuating up and down 3-4 buy ins at a time, high point is +$25 (at 2c/5c) and low point is even (-$20 here, I installed poker tracker after 10k hands). I think the main reason I'm winning so little is my EV graph which would be amusing if it wasn't mine, but I figure to be still so close to even at 2c/5c tables after 15k hands means I'm spewing chips badly.

Would someone mind taking a look at my stats for the past 5k hands?

As you can tell by the stats my game is very sloppy and needs some refinement to do any good online.
I was actually surprised that this has me running at 26/22, I thought it was closer to 24/22 and am obviously adjusting by calling less pre-flop.

Another point is that when I put money in as SB it's either been folded to me and I'm stealing from a weak BB or there have been 3-4 limpers and I'm making a raise of about 80% of the pot, if anyone calls it they seem to play fit or fold as if I have aces. It's actually difficult for me to refrain from doing this with ATC, a lot of players like limping a lot.

I'm particularly interested in any thoughts on my turn and river play which as you can see is very passive and that's not just an adjustment to playing micro stakes, I'm generally very passive on the turn although I do tend to value bet very thin on the river so I'm surprised that one is so low.

If there are any really obvious leaks here, I'd appreciate it if someone could point them out.

#2 15th January 2010, 5:15 AM

I always have a tough time reading this tab from PT3, more used to the general tab and the position stats tab, so take below fwiw...

You're playing the BB quite a bit - might want to review whether this is profitable for you.

Your W$SD sucks for that WTSD% - a reflection of your Ev line I presume...

How often are you cbetting? If I'm reading this right, it's pretty low (at micro, I'd consider anything less than 80% - 85% as a leak)? When you do cbet the flop, how often do you fire a second barrel? If you have a large gap between the two percentages, this might be a leak.

#3 15th January 2010, 6:10 AM

Without blind, my BB is +$22, with blind it's -$9 so the play from BB is definately reducing the damage. I can't think what I'm actually doing from the BB, occasionally it's folded to SB and they complete which makes me raise ATC and if instead of completing they raise it's almost always a min-raise so I call or raise at least half of the time (as far as I'm concerned I'm now the button and will play it that way).

As for W$SD and WTSD%
The more often I go to showdown the lower the % that I'm going to win. Do you mean that I'm not getting to showdown often enough to justify such a low winning %?
I think the reason it's like that is that when I have a hand I'm betting it all the way. I seem to be only able to get about 2 bets out of them regardless of how I play it or what they have. Typically my opponents fold rather than give me a 3rd street of value.
I think I'm also getting bluffed a lot so I'm not making it to many showdowns, but I think I'm borderline calling too many bluffs as it is (lots of overbets, it's kind of hard to call 1/4 of your stack on the flop to catch a bluff). There's just no putting them on a hand... there's no logic behind what these people do. The best method of telling if they're bluffing or not that I've got is to consider the frequency that they've bluffed before and the size of the bet relative to the pot. I've given up thinking about hand ranges, the best I can do with these people is "at least top pair" "two pair or better...". I'd deposit some of my live roll to just move up the stakes to where hand ranges actually apply, but I figure without beating this first I'm just donating money.

C-betting the flop is a bit of the same story of getting bluffed I think, I raise pre-flop and c-bet as standard, it's only if the pot is multiway (4+ players) that I'll shut down, or the other thing that stops me c-betting is donkbets but every one I've looked up had a hand, so I started taking it as a sign of a hand that wanted to get paid and folding, I wouldn't be surprised if that cut a good 20-30% off my c-bet frequency.

Not sure if any of those rationalisations are proffitable or leaks.

Oddly enough my negative $ positions are the last four and everything else is positive. Maybe this is fancy play syndrome and I'm just getting too clever with too wide a range, that or it's only counting my proffits from showdowns and not pots that I win without showdown. As you can see my blind steals have been effective, it's hard to think that I'm actually losing from those positions...
Edit to add:
(Amount won, with blind)
Button: -$4.33
1: -$5.70
2: -$4.97
3: -$11.74
4: +$3.03
5: +$3.88
6: +$10:30
BB: -$9.35 (+$22.55 without blind)
SB: -$1.15 (+11.61 without blind)

Kinda weird looking. If it is counting redline winnings too, then this probably is just fancy play syndrome...

#4 15th January 2010, 6:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thepokerkid123

Without blind, my BB is +$22, with blind it's -$9 so the play from BB is definately reducing the damage. I can't think what I'm actually doing from the BB, occasionally it's folded to SB and they complete which makes me raise ATC and if instead of completing they raise it's almost always a min-raise so I call or raise at least half of the time (as far as I'm concerned I'm now the button and will play it that way).

As for W$SD and WTSD%
The more often I go to showdown the lower the % that I'm going to win. Do you mean that I'm not getting to showdown often enough to justify such a low winning %?

Yeah, that's what I meant. I don't have it open right now, but I think my WTSD% is around 27-29% and my W$SD is like 53 or 54%, and I don't think my W$SD is unusually high or low for the WTSD% I have.

I think the reason it's like that is that when I have a hand I'm betting it all the way. I seem to be only able to get about 2 bets out of them regardless of how I play it or what they have. Typically my opponents fold rather than give me a 3rd street of value.
I think I'm also getting bluffed a lot so I'm not making it to many showdowns, but I think I'm borderline calling too many bluffs as it is (lots of overbets, it's kind of hard to call 1/4 of your stack on the flop to catch a bluff). There's just no putting them on a hand... there's no logic behind what these people do. The best method of telling if they're bluffing or not that I've got is to consider the frequency that they've bluffed before and the size of the bet relative to the pot. I've given up thinking about hand ranges, the best I can do with these people is "at least top pair" "two pair or better...". I'd deposit some of my live roll to just move up the stakes to where hand ranges actually apply, but I figure without beating this first I'm just donating money.

C-betting the flop is a bit of the same story of getting bluffed I think, I raise pre-flop and c-bet as standard, it's only if the pot is multiway (4+ players) that I'll shut down, or the other thing that stops me c-betting is donkbets but every one I've looked up had a hand, so I started taking it as a sign of a hand that wanted to get paid and folding, I wouldn't be surprised if that cut a good 20-30% off my c-bet frequency.

Not sure if any of those rationalisations are proffitable or leaks.

Oddly enough my negative $ positions are the last four and everything else is positive. Maybe this is fancy play syndrome and I'm just getting too clever with too wide a range, that or it's only counting my proffits from showdowns and not pots that I win without showdown. As you can see my blind steals have been effective, it's hard to think that I'm actually losing from those positions...
Edit to add:
(Amount won, with blind)
Button: -$4.33
1: -$5.70
2: -$4.97
3: -$11.74
4: +$3.03
5: +$3.88
6: +$10:30
BB: -$9.35 (+$22.55 without blind)
SB: -$1.15 (+11.61 without blind)

Could you post a screenshot of the positions tab? This is pretty much the reverse of what we'd expect to see, want to see VPIP/PFR by position.

Kinda weird looking. If it is counting redline winnings too, then this probably is just fancy play syndrome...

..

#5 15th January 2010, 6:41 AM

And no, I have no idea how the hell my SB VP$IP is higher than on the button. I must be doing some weird stuff from there.

#6 15th January 2010, 7:16 AM

Hmm, I hope someone else wanders into this discussion as well, esp if they disagree w anything I say here.

This is a small sample at multiple limits, so nothing's written in stone or anything (i.e., the winrates could be weird simply cuz the sample size is too small).

Overall, your VPIP is pretty high for a full ring player. You have advantages that you want to exploit when playing - one is your hand strength, one is your skills relative to the other player, and the other is position. Suggest that you focus on hand strength more when you're in the blinds through MP than you currently are (i.e., tighten up your hand selection preflop), and think about exploiting position preflop and postflop when you're in CO and BTN.

You might want to try playing a much tighter pf style for say a month or so and then start expanding your ranges by position after that, say 9/9 in EP, 18/17 in HJ, and 40/32 on btn?

Your utg and utg+1 ranges are pretty wide, definitely want to tighten up there I think. For comparison, my overall VPIP for 6max is roughly the same as your utg VPIP (my FR utg VPIP is 6 - I'm a nit, but I don't see a lot of good FR players w a VPIP higher than 10 utg). I realize you're actually winning from EP, and that might be an argument for not changing anything there - I think, though, that winning w those stats from EP is more likely a function of small sample size.

It looks like you're being very agg on the btn (40/37), which is very good, you want to be playing tons of hands on the button - but this is the position where my stats (as an example) for VPIP and PFR have the biggest gap - i.e. I like to float in position, so sometimes I'm cold calling behind in order to steal postflop, or because I think it's more profitable to call than 3bet a specific player in a specific situation (i.e., I think I can outplay him postflop and make more money than I will with a 3bet pf).

I steal and 3bet quite a bit from the SB - but geez your VPIP is sky high there , it's more than twice as much as mine is in 6max.

I suspect there's a disconnect between your pf aggression and your postflop aggression. I don't know, though, how to identify where possible leaks might be - couple of suggestions - post some hands in the HA forum where you're not sure whether or not you should be cbetting/two barreling - also skim through this thread looking specifically for discussions of postflop play (Flop Play section, Ed Miller article on two barreling): Ring Game Hand Analysis: Required Reading

gl, and post any questions you come up with!

#7 15th January 2010, 9:55 AM

You're playing way to loose. 26/22 for full ring is . I play much tighter than that at 6max...

My advice would be to play more tables. Playing so loose typically means you are getting bored and want more action. Get more action by playing more tables instead of playing more hands.

I'm not sure i can comment much on positional stats as they are over such small samples, but not having the BTN as your main profit center means you probably don't know how to use position properly post flop.

#8 15th January 2010, 9:57 AM

Also, don't look at your EV graph. It's largely irrelevant as most luck happens in spots where no one is all in.

#9 16th January 2010, 9:15 AM

It's just that I'm very arrogant that I have to respond again to say:
My button winnings (or losses, as was the case) were the result of my playing like a hyper aggressive idiot because the play at these tables is so bad that everything looks proffitable. Over the past 2k hands my stats (including the 5k sample) for button proffit have gone from -$4 to +$11.
Have also now passed my high point for proffits (which means I'm +6 max buy ins from my first post). Kind of a big difference between playing crazy aggressive and playing solid TAG.

Anyway, thanks for the responses, slycbnew and BelgoSuisse, both were helpful. I'm certainly playing a lot tighter, I think I'm playing about 10% fewer hands from the button and less from EP, still scratching my head about how my SB VP$IP is so high but am obviously folding most hands unless it's folded to me and BB is weak tight. Playing 8 tables now instead of 4, it does make occasionally using that fold button easier.

#10 17th January 2010, 2:03 AM

I can't comment because I'm still learning PT3.

I enjoyed the read. I might even pretend I learned something though. =P But ya it looks like you're playing too many hands, like Belgo said. Of course I ussually run like 40/32 at 6 max. So I guess I'm a maniac by his standards.

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