Live vs Online differences

#1 7th September 2009, 4:03 AM

I recently tried out a little experiment. After doing fairly well on vacation trips where there were casinos, I put aside some money and went to the local casino a couple times to see if I could actually make money at it. After 2 days with a couple coolers and some very bad play, I am left dejected to say the least.

I've been thinking today about what the differences are between live and online and how to adjust to those differences.

For example, online people respect a 3xBB raise PF somewhat. Yesterday, (in a 1/2nl game) UTG raised to $15 and everyone called, then the BB 3 bet for $75. A MP player then shoved for like $600 with A4o. Finding out what sort of raises are needed PF to thin the herd can be challenging and is ever changing as the table dynamics change.

Online I usually play 8 tables, which probably average 60 hands/ hr (which comes close to 500 hands per hour). Live you are lucky to see 25 to 30. How does that affect your opening range? I found that sitting back trying to play like a VPIP of 17% type game, when I did raise either everyone folded, or everyone called which made it basically impossible to put anyone on a range of hands. Do you open up and limp more? Everyone else seems to, yet I can't see this being a winning strategy.

Does position matter live? Online, position is absolutely king. Yet live, with a see flop % of what... 60% and up? if not 70%+, it occurred to me that hand strength take precedence. I had AQ in the CO, raised to $15 and everyone called. Now I'm faced with a situation that I didn't want, AQ vs 5 completely random hands. I miss (standard) and promptly fold when someone donk bets and 2 people call before me. It seemed to me that all PF raises did was either bloat the pot or fold everyone out. There was nothing in between.

When I played this morning online, I realized how poorly I played live and that made me feel worse than anything else. I basically turned into a weak passive fish. Just thinking about it makes me want to pound my nuts flat with a hammer. Hopefully I learned my lesson.

What are the different skill sets that live needs as opposed to online?

#2 7th September 2009, 5:12 AM

You just found the biggest difference of live and online play; opening and chase hands. Although the number of players you stated was a bit larger than I would want to play against. I would just say that you might want to open to about 25% to 31% and more reraises on the flop to push off the stragglers.

I like to play conservative limp or min raise preflop and wait for my hand to hit post flop (cheap is not always an option but pays well if you hit the flop well). Most live players don't have the patience because they don't see as many hands; so they will play almost any two suited or connected or even closely connected on ring state limit tables. They tend to run more top pair and missed straights and flushes and still give a big bet on the turn or river. Discipline at the turn and river making sure you completed your chase or a good eye on your opponent's chase, is mostly all that is needed.

Now for me it's just the opposite......... I am coming from live to online and find that there is more of an emphasis on starting hands and flop c-bets.

#3 7th September 2009, 8:00 PM

In short, implied odds in live games are through the roof. Players will pay hard to chase hands, and pay off with mediocre ones. Basically, they are there to gamble.

Online players are a lot tighter (not necessarily way better), but most of them have played enough hands to know that calling three near pot sized bets with 88 on a KQxxT board is suicide. And there are a number of super nits/rocks that basically camp for QQ+ and sets. You won't really see many of these uber tight lack of action players at a live table.

#4 7th September 2009, 8:09 PM

Wow I have never seen live players quite as crazed as you described.
I have seen some pretty bad players live, especially in Vegas at some of the casinos. There is a reason the casinos give out free drinks.

Everyone has seen poker on TV, so they think it's easy to hit that 2 outer on the river to win that big pot. I have used that to my advantage many times and been burned many as well.

#5 9th September 2009, 2:01 AM

it all goes into to why people play the game...I for one notice that there are alot of good players grinding it out in online games but in live games there are social drinkers and such and all sorts of people.....plus online its easier to choose ur game and live most people just take whatever seat they can get

#6 9th September 2009, 4:55 AM

I think you found yourself in a very loose wild game during your vacation and probably did not adjust to the strategy needed at the time. But overall, I usually play 1/2 no limit live games in vegas and just recently I started playing online again and the 1/2 on line is nothing like the 1/2 live.... Huge difference... But overall like someone mention above, live cash games are implied odd games.... I think online is pretty much standard c-bets, bluffs, position... While live is more of a feel because of the advantage of seeing your opponent sweat under pressure.......

#7 9th September 2009, 5:54 AM

Ive had similiar tables live, im fairly sure it relates too what time you go to the casino. I know weekends attract more casual poker players, thus more people willing to gamble/drink and generally there to have a good time. I find sticking to days during the week i come across alot more solid players who actually are there to grind.

#8 9th September 2009, 8:47 AM

I agree...how much experience, the time of day and how much booze is floating around has a lot to do with the play. And everyone's play affects yours so you go different days and times to pick what is right for you.

#9 9th September 2009, 10:10 AM

Depends on the table, the time and the day.

Often the table will start loose crazy and go tight-timid and back again over the course of a long session. Sometimes a $10 raise will steal the pot, other times a $50 raise will get 6 callers with big pocket cracking rags (still grumbling over my pocket kings from last night).

I don't know if you get this as much online, but another random aggressive factor in live play is that you'll occasionally get players who play higher stakes but their game isn't going yet or is full, and some of them will play worse than most maniacs because the $200 buy in is "pocket change".

Some nights you've also got the drunks and gamblers, people who've been partying and ended up at the casino expecting to lose their money. Actually, it's amazing how few players actually expect to as much as break even. This all adds to that loose mentallity.

With all of that said, there are a ton of grinders also, maybe it's just the fact that they play sensibly and don't run out of cash in the first 45 minutes like the gamblers do, but there are sufficient numbers of them to give you a game that's as strong as any online game.
Even then though, there's different rules. 3x BB gets no respect, if you want people to fold, you've got to go 5x BB minimum, forget about standard raises though, raise with a purpose (not specific to your cards, just specific to how you want this hand to play out), either raise to isolate and throw out however much is necessary to achieve this (more from early position, more in aggressive games, and less in tight games or when half of the field has already folded), if you want to build the pot, throw out that 3x BB, no one will put you on a hand they'll mostly just be puzzled or unconcerned.

The other thing you've got to know about live poker is that you can't rely on betting patterns. They're important, but often you've got to override them with tells. Often I'll say something like "sucks to have to fold queens or jacks, doesn't it?" to someone and they can't figure out how I called their hand when all they did was limp/call and get outdrawn then fold. Often they'll just look like they're holding a big pocket, then they'll get scared on the flop and either check/fold or make a scared overbet. The fact is that they sometimes play a monster the exact same way that they'd play 89s, but if you're paying attention you can see it. You've just got all of that extra information at your disposal, and reading someone's emotions is a lot easier than trying to make sense of frequently irrational betting patterns.

Also, in answer to your question about position, yes it's important. It's everything in live poker as it is in online.

Finally, if there are some simple changes you have to make, here they are:
1: Always remember the suits. Look once, put a chip on top of the cards and don't look again.
2: Don't look at the flop as it comes out, watch the players.
3: When your opponent is making a big decision, against amateurs you want to act and give off all kinds of false tells, staring them down aggressively almost always gets a call, getting up from your seat like you're uncomfortable and want to go home also gets a call, breathing heavily so your chest goes in and out gets a fold. Against strong players you want to do nothing, pick a spot on the table and stare at it and keep everything the same.

#10 9th September 2009, 11:43 AM

My problem is I dont play aggressive enough live, because if someone catches me bluffing I would feel like an iddiott !
Anyone else ever had this problem either now or in the past?

#11 9th September 2009, 9:23 PM

I think online is more of an aggressive game, the games are meant to be high variance i mean just look at the software, online you get the aa vs kk all the time or the aa vs set all the time but in live play it takes a long long time to get to the point and players tend to play tighter waiting for that one big hand to make money. imo.

#12 10th September 2009, 12:32 AM

Sounds like a pretty standard live game to me.

You just need to adjust your game to fit. Don't be relying on strategies like thinning the field with AQ in games where it just won't work, and be more willing to play hands that can turn into monsters and get you paid off big (small pairs, connectors, etc).

Anywho, these are some of the skills you need live that are different to online.

- Knowing how to conceal your tells (easiest way: master the Chris Ferguson pose)
- Learn to pick up on the tells of others
- Recall and player categorisation. This is very important when you don't have a HUD or notes feature to fall back on
- An ability to adjust to suit the game. The game you've described, while high variance, sounds like a fantastic one. If you're patient enough you should be able to get paid off big on some good hands and come out well ahead. The game you play to capitalise on them won't necessarily be the same game you play online though.

#13 10th September 2009, 1:34 AM

I agree with vtriclone, online is a very high variance game and I always do see big pocket pairs against big pocket pairs.... Online players in general are more aggressive.....

#14 10th September 2009, 1:35 AM

live you play with real chips

online you play with happytime internet monie

#15 10th September 2009, 2:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vanquish

live you play with real chips

online you play with happytime internet monie

Don't forget to tip the dealer!

#16 10th September 2009, 4:18 AM

I've certainly seen people make some ridiculous calls against me in live poker and whenever i lose I just think. I want these people making these calls rebuy an go at it again. I notice by peoples preflop raises why hands there normally on at my casino $10-14 small- PP AJs+ $16-20 is usually an isolating raise where someone might have QQ JJ. It's hard to generalise like this but of you play enough at the same casino you can categorize every player after a few
orbits

#17 11th September 2009, 12:13 PM

Theres lot of difference between live and online mate...
In online poker u cant see the patients face and body language, which helps you too catch his bluffs....
In online u have to depend on only his playing mind mood.

While in live poker u have both the advantages.
And believe me its lot more fun and interesting playing live !!!

#18 17th September 2009, 9:52 PM

Online to Live: Seven Rules for Making the Switch

By Daniel Skolovy
User rating: 3.92 out of 5 (144 votes)

$\"\"$
Zee Justin knows all about the switch from online to live.

So you've mastered online poker, you crush your game for 5BB/100 and everyone on 2+2 thinks you're the man. Maybe it's time to try your hand at those juicy live games you've heard so much about? How different can it be? Yes, the rumors are true - live games are incredibly juicy. But if you can't adjust to the subtle intricacies of live poker, you won't be as big a winner as you should be (or think you should be).

The major differences, and how to adjust your game:

1) Games are Slower
The biggest change, and it will hit you right away, is that live games are slower. Much slower.

Not only are you forced to play just one table, but the game itself takes much longer to play out. While you may get more than 80 hands per hour per table online, you'll be lucky to get 30 live.

Fewer hands mean a lot more folding. And a lot more boredom. But don't just shut your brain off - use your free time to observe your opponents,
If you can stay sharp, watch your opponents and break down their playing styles, when you end up in a hand with them a few hours down the road, you're going to have a huge advantage.

2) Average Tables are Much Softer
Making up for how slow the games are: how much softer your average table is.

$\"\"$
Softer games make up for less hands per hour.

When you play online, you may consider it a good table if there's one full-stacked fish. When you play live at $5/$10 and below, your average table consists of two real fish, two gamblers (the fishy kind), four super tight "regulars" and maybe two good players (including, you hope, you).
The whole table is softer. The fish are fishier, and the regs are more predictable.

There are even players that are so tight you can guarantee any time they raise it's either KK, AA or the nuts. These players would be eaten alive online, but because there are so many more fish live, they can still beat the game.

So as easy as it is to wait for the nuts and relentlessly value-bet against the fish, it's just as easy to raise the tight regs and push them around.
When they push back, fold. It's an easy game.

3) Games are Loose-Passive
If you've come from the online six-max arena, it's going to be shocking to you how passive these games are.

Online, it may be profitable to four-bet shove/call shoves with AK from any position pre-flop. If you do it live, you'll find AA-KK every time and you'll get killed.

Light three-betting is almost non-existent. When most players re-raise, it's almost always for value.

Watch your opponents - they may go a whole session without a single three-bet. Some players even just flat-call QQ and AK, opting to play poker on the flop.

If you're regularly getting AK in pre-flop 100bb deep (or more) in a live game, you're going to have a tough time booking wins.

Moving past just pre-flop play, the whole game is much more passive. Rather than raising with draws, players will just call and hope to hit.

They'll also slow play monsters rather than build a big pot, and they'll miss obvious river value-bets.

$\"\"$
Limp, limp, limp.

4) Pre-Flop Limping is Rampant
Connected to #3 above, there's a ton of limping pre-flop in live games.
Online, you can tell who the fish are by who limps. Live, it isn't the same. Everybody limps - and limps a lot.

If you tried to isolate every single time someone limped, you'd just find yourself taking flops 4- and 5-way regularly.

Live players like to see the flop. So rather than iso-raising with T

8

off the button, you may just be better off seeing a flop 6-way.

5) Pots are Contested Multi-Way
Online, 90% of pots are heads-up to the flop. Live, your average pot is usually 2- or 3-handed.

With more players comes more chance someone has a real hand. As the pre-flop raiser, you should continuation-bet less.

You'll also need, on average, a better hand to win at showdown.

6) Games are Deeper

$\"\"$
Just play your game. If you're like Tom Dwan it won't matter if it's online or live.

If you're a winner online, you've mastered play with a 100bb stack. But when you play live, you'll find yourself 200bb deep (or more) very often.

Adjusting to deep-stack play can be very difficult. You'll often play hands where, if you were 100BB deep, you'd just happily get it in on the flop. But if you're 300bb deep, it's no longer profitable.

Should you choose to call, you'll have to call large bets on the turn and river as well.

7) Just Play Your Game
Whether it's live or online, your goal remains the same: either make your opponent fold before showdown, or have the best hand at showdown.

Watch your opponents, study their playing habits and play your poker game. The rest is just experience.

So get up from your computer, go be sociable for a bit and take advantage of the softer games. You may be surprised with what you've been missing.

#19 18th September 2009, 9:01 AM

^^^Great article, I find a lot of truth in it.

Effexor - I completely agree with what GordonStr said. The game was loose and wild and it was so different then what you are accustomed to you had a hard time adepting. I have played in games like these, these people are gamblers more than poker players, they are adreneline junkies and they usually have more money than brains. There are about 10-20 regulars where I play that are like this (depending on time of year), and they will pay off your monsters big time. It's learning how to exploit these hyper aggressive/passive fish that was difficult for me but it's do-able and profitable (as long as they aren't running lucky).

Also note that almost every poker room tends to have it's own flavor. I can not stress that enough. I've played in many casinos around Michigan and they are so different from each other as for the styles of play in each one. Another casino I frequent is laced with tag's and I will play a much more loose aggressive style when I go there than I play in any of the other rooms; I pull off many more bluffs and win a lot more money than the room I normally play at.

#20 18th September 2009, 9:23 AM

Wow I just started a thread about transitioning from online to live...let me delete that thread and post what I wrote here.

Playing 25NL online, I have to get very focused and review a gameplan before a live game. The jump from 25NL to 100 or 200NL live is something that should not be taken lightly. So here are a few key differences between the two and a few rules I try to follow. I would like to hear others opinions and strategies.

1. I always FEEL like I am card dead playing live since I am used to multi tabling online. I run about a 12/8 online but to avoid being viewed as too tight and getting bored which can affect my decision making skills, I will once in a blue moon raise with J8 or K4 suited in LP.

2. There is a lot of debate on what live limit is equivalent to what online limit. It is without a doubt that if you play the same limits online you will find far superior players than at a live game. However this does not mean 100NL live = 10NL online. In 10NL online there are many regular players along with a bunch of beginners learning the ropes as well as a field of donkeys but rarely are there any good players. Why is that? Well as soon as the dedicated 10NL disciple gets a feel for the limit he/she cannot resist the temptation of 25NL. But at live games 100NL, there are all the player groups mentioned above with the addition of good players and even (semi) professionals. It is key to spot out who is who EARLY.

With that said my strategy for live games is to start off very tight then loosen up (not loose just loosen up ) then settle in the middle. If you are a stats person the V$IP/PFR would ideally be 8/6 --> 15/10 --> 12/9. That is what I hope my stats would look like if I could track my live game info. Starting out, I like to showdown a solid hand or two. Once in a while I raise with a good hand and the blinds/limpers fold back to me. I love to use this opportunity to show off my solid standard play. Its almost like patting everyone on the back and saying smart fold guys...while in the back of my mind I wait for an opportunity to raise with J8s (God I love that hand ) At this point I am playing a little loose and bluffing/stealing more but as I watch the table adjust to me (or not) I look for a chance to bluff someone and reveal my bluff or just flip over 2 trash hole cards. Who says 4th limping 75s in CO is bad when you hit a straight or you call a low flop and bluff hard when an overcard hits?

So super tight NIT to start and observe the table then loosen up a tad (if my skill level ever develops this would be the LAG stage) and finally find middle ground as a TAG.

3. I also like to have some sort of erhhh...substance in my system while playing 100 or 200NL. It keeps my heart from leaping out when I look down at KK.

4. With no reads and average stacks fold 77-JJ when someone raises you and you are OOP PF.

Cant think of anything else at the moment I might get back to this. I hope this helps anyone improve their game and I am also looking forward to hearing other peoples strategies.

#21 18th September 2009, 9:29 AM

I think live game is harder than online.
One time played 1/2 NL, had J's raise $20, and other guy with K's raise $50.
Thing is $50 to see flop, but people called that with A,3 off suite, 8,9 same suite, and 10,7 off suite.
I lost some money, because board was 10, 2, 5, 3, 2
but how can people called to river with those hand?

#22 18th September 2009, 9:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effexor

When I played this morning online, I realized how poorly I played live and that made me feel worse than anything else. I basically turned into a weak passive fish. Just thinking about it makes me want to pound my nuts flat with a hammer. Hopefully I learned my lesson.

No one deserves that no matter what theyve done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thepokerkid123

Finally, if there are some simple changes you have to make, here they are:
1: Always remember the suits. Look once, put a chip on top of the cards and don't look again.
2: Don't look at the flop as it comes out, watch the players.
3: When your opponent is making a big decision, against amateurs you want to act and give off all kinds of false tells, staring them down aggressively almost always gets a call, getting up from your seat like you're uncomfortable and want to go home also gets a call, breathing heavily so your chest goes in and out gets a fold. Against strong players you want to do nothing, pick a spot on the table and stare at it and keep everything the same.

Gold gold gold

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emrald Onyxx

Online to Live: Seven Rules for Making the Switch

By Daniel Skolovy
User rating: 3.92 out of 5 (144 votes)

$\"\"$
Zee Justin knows all about the switch from online to live.

So you've mastered online poker, you crush your game for 5BB/100 and everyone on 2+2 thinks you're the man. Maybe it's time to try your hand at those juicy live games you've heard so much about? How different can it be? Yes, the rumors are true - live games are incredibly juicy. But if you can't adjust to the subtle intricacies of live poker, you won't be as big a winner as you should be (or think you should be).

The major differences, and how to adjust your game:

1) Games are Slower
The biggest change, and it will hit you right away, is that live games are slower. Much slower.

Not only are you forced to play just one table, but the game itself takes much longer to play out. While you may get more than 80 hands per hour per table online, you'll be lucky to get 30 live.

Fewer hands mean a lot more folding. And a lot more boredom. But don't just shut your brain off - use your free time to observe your opponents,
If you can stay sharp, watch your opponents and break down their playing styles, when you end up in a hand with them a few hours down the road, you're going to have a huge advantage.

2) Average Tables are Much Softer
Making up for how slow the games are: how much softer your average table is.

$\"\"$
Softer games make up for less hands per hour.

When you play online, you may consider it a good table if there's one full-stacked fish. When you play live at $5/$10 and below, your average table consists of two real fish, two gamblers (the fishy kind), four super tight "regulars" and maybe two good players (including, you hope, you).
The whole table is softer. The fish are fishier, and the regs are more predictable.

There are even players that are so tight you can guarantee any time they raise it's either KK, AA or the nuts. These players would be eaten alive online, but because there are so many more fish live, they can still beat the game.

So as easy as it is to wait for the nuts and relentlessly value-bet against the fish, it's just as easy to raise the tight regs and push them around.
When they push back, fold. It's an easy game.

3) Games are Loose-Passive
If you've come from the online six-max arena, it's going to be shocking to you how passive these games are.

Online, it may be profitable to four-bet shove/call shoves with AK from any position pre-flop. If you do it live, you'll find AA-KK every time and you'll get killed.

Light three-betting is almost non-existent. When most players re-raise, it's almost always for value.

Watch your opponents - they may go a whole session without a single three-bet. Some players even just flat-call QQ and AK, opting to play poker on the flop.

If you're regularly getting AK in pre-flop 100bb deep (or more) in a live game, you're going to have a tough time booking wins.

Moving past just pre-flop play, the whole game is much more passive. Rather than raising with draws, players will just call and hope to hit.

They'll also slow play monsters rather than build a big pot, and they'll miss obvious river value-bets.

$\"\"$
Limp, limp, limp.

4) Pre-Flop Limping is Rampant
Connected to #3 above, there's a ton of limping pre-flop in live games.
Online, you can tell who the fish are by who limps. Live, it isn't the same. Everybody limps - and limps a lot.

If you tried to isolate every single time someone limped, you'd just find yourself taking flops 4- and 5-way regularly.

Live players like to see the flop. So rather than iso-raising with T

8

off the button, you may just be better off seeing a flop 6-way.

5) Pots are Contested Multi-Way
Online, 90% of pots are heads-up to the flop. Live, your average pot is usually 2- or 3-handed.

With more players comes more chance someone has a real hand. As the pre-flop raiser, you should continuation-bet less.

You'll also need, on average, a better hand to win at showdown.

6) Games are Deeper

$\"\"$
Just play your game. If you're like Tom Dwan it won't matter if it's online or live.

If you're a winner online, you've mastered play with a 100bb stack. But when you play live, you'll find yourself 200bb deep (or more) very often.

Adjusting to deep-stack play can be very difficult. You'll often play hands where, if you were 100BB deep, you'd just happily get it in on the flop. But if you're 300bb deep, it's no longer profitable.

Should you choose to call, you'll have to call large bets on the turn and river as well.

7) Just Play Your Game
Whether it's live or online, your goal remains the same: either make your opponent fold before showdown, or have the best hand at showdown.

Watch your opponents, study their playing habits and play your poker game. The rest is just experience.

So get up from your computer, go be sociable for a bit and take advantage of the softer games. You may be surprised with what you've been missing.

Platinum & diamond so damn true...but this applies to casinos only not home games. Home games are somewhere between casino and online play.

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