Limit games - should u slow down against a flush draw?

Hello.

Playing a lot of O8 recently but I think this question could apply to all poker `hi` games.

When u hit a flop with a set and there is a flush draw, should u slow down when playing limit???

Simple question but difficult answer???

Why would you?

If i hit trips and there is a flush draw out there the money is going in. I'll gamble in that situation every time. If you were aggresive with your pair pre flop then continue to bet big when you hit trips on flop. You have him beat for now why let him see a free card, no check. Def don't min raise you don't want him to think your weak that gives him more reason to chase his flush. My only fear of hitting trips on flop with flush draw is losing control of the hand. for ex. calling the rediculous value bets he puts out on his draw so that i can punish him on the river.

I don't slow play anything. You can't always play scared. If know you are beat, that's one thing...otherwise keep the pressure on.

Gotta agree with the other answers, with one caveat - if you hit the set and bet max (pot or limit) and he raises, I'll just call (unless that puts me close to all-in, in which case I'll just put it all out there). If he raises or re-raises you, he's willing to 4-bet it on the flop and turn on his draw. You're not going to push him off the hand, so you have to go to damage control against that kind of mindset.

It does not work in all forms of poker!!!

I play a lot of O8, so I guess it is different.

The reason I say slow down is that the other guy will get the odds to make their call everytime.

Havinging said that, I would bet out with a set when a flush draw is possible (I have just done it and they hit their flush on the river )

Interesting FP and thanks for that.

However, I can understand that when your opponent is only 15% to win the pot, but what about when the other person is say 25%?

Say u put another 10% into a pot (for example only) I can`t get my thick head around it, but does that not mean u r making a mistake, even though you are ahead?

I appreciate you answering FP - I know u r ahighly skilled limit player.

No, the example extends.

Even if you're only 51% to win, you're still winning 51% of the money going in.

I think you're having trouble wrapping your head around this because you're stuck on the idea of a "mistake" and you define making a mistake as "the other guy not making a mistake." It's perfectly normal (especially in limit) that you have several players not make a single mistake postflop. One of them will still win more money over the long haul, but because there's dead money in the pot there can often be situations where neither you nor your opponent make any mistakes.

Mistakes aren't "digital". It's a smooth line. Look:

You're playing no-limit, and you can bet any amount you want to. It's on the turn, let's say that the pot is $1,000 and you and your opponent have infinitely deep stacks. You know, because he showed you, that your opponent has a flush draw. You also know, because you've studied odds, that your opponent is 20% to win this pot. Here's the thing:

If you bet your whole stack - infinity - your opponent will make an infinitely large mistake to call you.

If you bet $1,000, he will make a mistake to the tune of $400 (losing $1k 80% of the time, winning $2k 20% of the time).

If you bet $500, he will make a $200 mistake.

If you bet $250, he will make a $0 mistake. This is the breakeven point.

If you bet $100, he will gain$140.

If you bet $50, he will gain $170

If you bet $0, he will gain $200

So while it's true that he's not making a mistake when you bet less than $250, he's winning more and more the less you bet. And who is he winning this extra money from? You.

As an extreme example: The huge pot. Let's say that you play $3/$6 LHE, and it's heads-up on the turn. For whatever reason, some millionaire walks by and tosses $1,000 in the pot and says "here's something for you to play for." Your opponent is now correct to call with virtually any hand, because unless he knows that he's drawing dead, it doesn't matter even if he has a one-outer. I know you already understand this, but here's the kicker:

You STILL want to bet your strong hands. It doesn't matter that he's correct to call with any-two, because you will STILL collect the lion's share of whatever amount of money you get him to put in. The dead money in the pot is there to help the weaker hand chase, but the strong hand wants to win even MORE money.

Yes, it is a difficult answer, but only because there's not enough information. For our purposes here, I'm going to assume there is no straight draw, and you're in middle or semi-late position, checked to you. So our flop is:



There is a huge difference between having a set of 3s and a set of Ks. If you have 3's, you might already be crushed. And you can count on another 2 over cards coming. And IF you hit your boat, you can count on that pair on board giving someone else a bigger boat. You will never rest easy with your 3s until you see quads. Now on the other hand, if you have Ks, you not only have the current nuts, but if the board pairs, you are probably still golden (you can't worry about some freak situation involving an ace or 2 ).

That said, the bet after the flop is a small one. So I would probably bet out to induce a fold. But as mentioned, the pot odds are in most everyone's favor to call - particularly if they have a high flush draw, 2 pair or even perhaps high pair plus good runner runner possibilities (i.e. AKQT, maybe even with 2 of the cards being spades).

You didn't ask about the turn & river, but of course, it all depends on what comes. If the flush comes on the turn, you check and prepare to lay down the 3s. If it's Ks you have, I check, but might call a single bet and hope for the board to pair up for the nuts. If there's a bet AND a reraise to me, I probably have to fold. I'm not counting on the board to pair up on the river.

Thank you my friend.

Well explained - I get it now.

Also thanks to Dive - u were just beaten to the punch by FR !!!

Even though FP posted an hour before me, I had starting writing it earlier, but had a few interruptions. Yes, FP's was a very good post. I had an intuitive feel for his concept (thus my comment about not calling a reraise when I know I'm now behind, because then it's YOU making the mistake) but I definitely understand it better myself now.

Thank you for posting this question - I was just thinking about something similar today.

I understand FPs line but have a question on a similar hand.

Top set in a painted straight draw like:



I figure the outcome is similar - as I am in front of any drawing hands.

Looks a bit creepy though.

are you talking PL or Fixed???

Pretty sure this is fixed. And yeah FP nailed it. Sure they have odds to call if you bet but they have infinite odds if you check.

The OP specified it in the title of the thread - LIMIT GAMES. He also went on in the post itself to say: "should u slow down when playing limit???"

As a general rule, a reference to 'limit' means 'fixed' limit. Pot limit will generally be referred to as PL or PLO (or PLO8 since the OP was talking about his regular play in O8 games).

Not sure I understand this. A flop like this is no longer a draw. There IS a straight, there IS a flush. Not one more heart matters. But if by some miracle no one has a straight, a 5, 6, 7, J, Q, or K can do the job. That's uh... a lot of outs. Look at even just the table of contents of any good Omaha book. There are chapters dedicated to straights. You'd be playing 'bad Omaha' to call any bet with trips, even top set (10s). MAYBE unless you're on the button w/just 1 raise. Even still, you are drawing, and it might cost a lot if you don't hit your boat on the turn. But...at this point, and again assuming mid position, you should assume you are VERY beat - and depending on how many are in the hand, beat by more than 1 person.

I would put my money in the middle. You will win more often than not, and keep in mind, your implied odds are actually pretty good, because if the board pairs and makes their flush, you'll win a whole lot.

Right.
But I don't assume Opp having the flush or straight but drawing.
I know I'm rather dead if they do.

We are talking about Omaha, right? There is NO SUCH THING as a flush draw with that flop, the flush has arrived. That's why I said not one extra heart will matter. We are using 3 from the board, 2 from our hands. You can have 5 hearts on the table, won't make a diff - if anything, it might work on our favor, like hard to believe ANYONE has a flush with 5 hearts on the table. Same with the straight. Someone's GOT IT. If not, they soon will. But assume, they already do - 8-9-10 - yikes, they do. But graf...you are NOT necessarily drawing dead, not at all. You just gotta understand that you are beat, and be willing to take the calculated risks to get (what better be) at least a nut boat.

I know what your saying Ron.In O8 a set is not best this is only about HIGH? I would bet every time and more so if this is just limit and not pot limit.I would call any raise he makes until the flush draw hits/misses.

How do you figure you're dead? The board pairs and you win...

i dont slow down w/ my trips especially playing limit... w/ a pair ill bet out >8s in no limit i may just limp in, but if i hit my set with the flush draw then i would just try to get my money in

Oh - I misread part of the OP.
Omaha limit not HENL.
Ok that changes things.
Damn. - sorry.

i would make it as expensive for the draw as possible , in the low limits there are a lot of player which are just calling a draw once and then folding if u still bet the turn.

slowplay would be the wrong way

This to me is reasonable advice. There is also a lot of questionable advice, like 'the board pairs and you win'. And in situations like a flush AND str8 draw, yes, you DO need to slow down - it is LIKELY about damage control at that point, as KDS63 mentioned. I don't like to 'put it on someone else', but pick yourself up a copy of Hwang on Omaha'. I just got it, and haven't looked at it much, but I suspect it's better than some of the stuff you'll get here on Omaha.

So how do you figure getting your money in the middle in limit?

I play a lot of O8. I did say that I thought the game would be irrelevant as say a flop of give a flush/ straight draw and poss in both O8 and holdem.

The big difference in O8 is obviously the lo.

So it is a general question relating to both.

Using the above example, a nut flush draw has 9 outs = about 20% to hit on each street.

10J has 8 outs = 18% to hit on each street.

Would I be correct thinking someone with say :Ah: :Jc: would have 38% chance on each street?

If so, on the flop they are 76% to hit if they bet out turn and river?

Now this get complicated. If u had :Kh: :Ks: x x.

COULD NOT GET ALL OF THE CARDS TO SHOW

Not exactly. You are double counting either the # of heart out of the straight outs. In other words, you are counting the twice. So either you have 9 flush outs and 6 straight outs, or 7 flush outs and 8 straight outs. And as long as we're talking about low, there's also low draw. No idea what the odds are for that, runner runner 3 thru 7, no pair.

Ya know, of the cards that are in the smiley section, can't they put them in order or something?

P.S. I mean my own error above when I said "a 5, 6, 7, J, Q, or K can do the job. That's uh... a lot of outs". The 5 & K are NOT outs, as you'd have the straight without them. The 5 is only an out if a 6 or 7 ALSO hits for the butt end of a straight. The K is only an out if a J or Q also hits or a higher straight.