This is the follow up to the May thread, which focussed on LHE - this month the focus is fixed limit omaha hi/lo.

Feel free to post any questions on LHE in here as well. The original idea was to set up a rotating thread around the HORSE games, but skoldpadda set up an excellent thread last month on the stud games, hoping we continue to see interest in that thread/a new monthly stud thread.

With some tournament commitments i hope to play around 5k hands of 1/2 LHE this month... probably be two tabling it for a long time, trying to get my head around some stuff. so far, with the 100 hands ive played, i really enjoyed it, actually excited to play poker again

Limit poker .. mmmm.....

OK so do you prefer to stick your bet buttons down with glue or tape?

Might as well kick things off, totally unrelated to Omaha HL.

After reading some comments about playing small pairs, it got me thinking why. Is it due to the fact that were not getting the right implied odds to set mine? Like this call here i made, is this a standard call? should i be 3betting? im not sure if it's a long term mistake to be flatting raises setmining with small pairs, im guessing it is a mistake...


Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2, 2
2 folds, CO raises, 2 folds, Hero calls

Flop: (4.5 SB) K, 2, 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls

Turn: (3.25 BB) A (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero raises, CO calls

River: (7.25 BB) 7 (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls

Total pot: $18.50 (9.25 BB) | Rake: $0.75

Originally Posted by WiZZiM

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2, 2
2 folds, CO raises, 2 folds, Hero calls

You're getting 3.5:1 preflop, and you flop a set 1 out of 8.5 times. So you need to make 4 small bets more when you hit to be profitable. Also, you can bluff catch on good boards for it. I don't think the preflop call was bad, but you wouldn't be giving up much by folding. I'd fold against good players.

Also, I'd look at some hands for you if you like.

Needs more silly min-bet games:

Feral Cow Poker
PokerStars Limit Triple Draw $0.50/$1.00 - 6 players

Button: $18.00
SB: $57.05
BB: $19.20
UTG: $17.50
UTG+1: $42.90
CO: $21.85 (Hero)

Dealing Hands: ($0.75) K♠ 2♣ 5♠ 5♣ 3♣ (6 players)
2 folds, Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, BB raises to $1.50, Hero calls $0.50

First Draw: ($3.25) (2 players)
BB discards 1, Hero discards 2,
2♣ 5♠ 3♣ || 6♦ K♦
BB checks, Hero checks

Second Draw: ($3.25) (2 players)
BB discards 1, Hero discards 1,
2♣ 5♠ 3♣ 6♦ || Q♣
BB bets $1, Hero ????

On the 2nd draw, we're getting 4.25:1. We have 8 outs to a hand we can bet (four 8's, four 7's), and nines, tens or jacks might win us the pot if he's patting some rough stuff. Is this a fold, a call, or a good spot to raise & snow (or raise & break, or raise & pat)? Honestly, I can find a good argument for just about every single play. Flop advice is also appreciated.

Yes, I'm spamming this thread, but I don't care. It needs love.

I bet this guy thinks he was the favorite on this flop...

Milked from the teat of a feral cow
PokerStars Limit Omaha Hi/Lo $0.50/$1.00 - 9 players

Preflop: (1.50 SB) Hero is BB with 6♦ J♠ 4♥ A♦ (9 players)
3 folds, MP2 calls, HJ raises, 3 folds, Hero calls, MP2 calls

Flop: (6.50 SB) 4♣ 4♦ 2♦ (3 players)
Hero bets, MP2 raises, HJ folds, Hero 3-bets, MP2 4-bets, Hero calls

Turn: (7.25 BB) J♥ (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, MP2 3-bets, Hero 4-bets, MP2 calls

River: (15.25 BB) K♦ (2 players)
Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP2 4-bets, Hero calls

MP2 showed 2♠ 4♠ Q♦ 9♠, and lost with HI: a full house, Fours full of Deuces
Hero showed 6♦ J♠ 4♥ A♦, and won ($22.75) with HI: a full house, Fours full of Jacks
Hero won $22.75

Originally Posted by c9h13no3

Needs more silly min-bet games:

Feral Cow Poker
PokerStars Limit Triple Draw $0.50/$1.00 - 6 players

Button: $18.00
SB: $57.05
BB: $19.20
UTG: $17.50
UTG+1: $42.90
CO: $21.85 (Hero)

Dealing Hands: ($0.75) K♠ 2♣ 5♠ 5♣ 3♣ (6 players)
2 folds, Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, BB raises to $1.50, Hero calls $0.50

First Draw: ($3.25) (2 players)
BB discards 1, Hero discards 2,
2♣ 5♠ 3♣ || 6♦ K♦
BB checks, Hero checks

Second Draw: ($3.25) (2 players)
BB discards 1, Hero discards 1,
2♣ 5♠ 3♣ 6♦ || Q♣
BB bets $1, Hero ????

On the 2nd draw, we're getting 4.25:1. We have 8 outs to a hand we can bet (four 8's, four 7's), and nines, tens or jacks might win us the pot if he's patting some rough stuff. Is this a fold, a call, or a good spot to raise & snow (or raise & break, or raise & pat)? Honestly, I can find a good argument for just about every single play. Flop advice is also appreciated.

I nearly replied to this as 5 card draw.. This is lowball triple draw right?

the flop he checks with a 1 were drawing pretty damn well, so id probably bet for value, since we also improve to a 1, this might also get us a free card if we want to take it on second draw. its only a 4 we don't want, 7's 8's and possibly 9's give us the best hand a lot.

Id probably just flat the second draw, go for a raise on the river if we hit. i don't think we can fold really, raising could be ok, but youd need some sort of read. since the guy checked the flop a strange play considering we drew 2, then bet SD, he's probably improved to a 8 -9 low. im only speculating, i havnt had too much experience with lowball, but that's my opinion anyways.

Originally Posted by c9h13no3

You're getting 3.5:1 preflop, and you flop a set 1 out of 8.5 times. So you need to make 4 small bets more when you hit to be profitable. Also, you can bluff catch on good boards for it. I don't think the preflop call was bad, but you wouldn't be giving up much by folding. I'd fold against good players.

Also, I'd look at some hands for you if you like.

thanks a lot, I think ill play a few thousand hands/read books, videos before ill get you to look at a few. Otherwise your advice may go over my head .

Originally Posted by WiZZiM

Otherwise your advice may go over my head .

No way. I certainly don't fancy myself to be an excellent LHE player. I probably do have more experience than you, but its not by much. Ship the hands!

LHE again - sorry, still haven't caught up to the other limit games yet this month.

BTN loves to limp the button and then fire aggressively at almost any flop, runs 80/36, Agg% 50, 100% VPIP on btn. BB is a solid TAG. I normally don't like to be aggressive in the SB w small pp's, but I felt if I could get HU even oop this would be a profitable spot.

raise > complete?

Given the read on villain, is there an argument for looking for a c/r on either flop or turn rather than leading, or is this the only way to play this hand?

I left the rest of the hand out, it obviously plays itself from Hero's standpoint.

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
Limit Holdem $0.50(BB) Replayer

Hero ($27.10)
BB ($26.40)
UTG ($30.15)
UTG+1 ($21.80)
CO ($9.45)
BTN ($16.90)

Dealt to Hero 6♥ 6♠
fold, fold, fold, BTN calls $0.50, Hero raises to $1, fold, BTN calls $0.50

FLOP ($2.50) 5♦ 5♠ 4♦
Hero bets $0.50, BTN calls $0.50

TURN ($3.50) 5♦ 5♠ 4♦ 6♣
[color=red]Hero bets $1, BTN raises to $2,

Originally Posted by c9h13no3

No way. I certainly don't fancy myself to be an excellent LHE player. I probably do have more experience than you, but its not by much. Ship the hands!

Ok then, ill play a few hands tonight, let me know where you want me to ship them too. i can post them in 'pokerhandreplays.com' everyone can look that way.

Originally Posted by slycbnew

LHE again - sorry, still haven't caught up to the other limit games yet this month.

BTN loves to limp the button and then fire aggressively at almost any flop, runs 80/36, Agg% 50, 100% VPIP on btn. BB is a solid TAG. I normally don't like to be aggressive in the SB w small pp's, but I felt if I could get HU even oop this would be a profitable spot.

raise > complete?

Given the read on villain, is there an argument for looking for a c/r on either flop or turn rather than leading, or is this the only way to play this hand?

I left the rest of the hand out, it obviously plays itself from Hero's standpoint.

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
Limit Holdem $0.50(BB) Replayer

Hero ($27.10)
BB ($26.40)
UTG ($30.15)
UTG+1 ($21.80)
CO ($9.45)
BTN ($16.90)

Dealt to Hero 6♥ 6♠
fold, fold, fold, BTN calls $0.50, Hero raises to $1, fold, BTN calls $0.50

FLOP ($2.50) 5♦ 5♠ 4♦
Hero bets $0.50, BTN calls $0.50

TURN ($3.50) 5♦ 5♠ 4♦ 6♣
[color=red]Hero bets $1, BTN raises to $2,

I was in a very similar spot, i just completed with the same hand 6es, i think like 88+ id complete, just as its unlikely to see as many overs, Not sure if that is correct thinking though, i think its fine either way.

i like the flop bet, could be a board he makes moves on, likely to get called by ace high type hands king highs, checking wouldnt be bad, but i think since its a small bet, betting is fine.

Originally Posted by c9h13no3

Needs more silly min-bet games:

Feral Cow Poker
PokerStars Limit Triple Draw $0.50/$1.00 - 6 players

Button: $18.00
SB: $57.05
BB: $19.20
UTG: $17.50
UTG+1: $42.90
CO: $21.85 (Hero)

Dealing Hands: ($0.75) K♠ 2♣ 5♠ 5♣ 3♣ (6 players)
2 folds, Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, BB raises to $1.50, Hero calls $0.50

First Draw: ($3.25) (2 players)
BB discards 1, Hero discards 2,
2♣ 5♠ 3♣ || 6♦ K♦
BB checks, Hero checks

Second Draw: ($3.25) (2 players)
BB discards 1, Hero discards 1,
2♣ 5♠ 3♣ 6♦ || Q♣
BB bets $1, Hero ????

On the 2nd draw, we're getting 4.25:1. We have 8 outs to a hand we can bet (four 8's, four 7's), and nines, tens or jacks might win us the pot if he's patting some rough stuff. Is this a fold, a call, or a good spot to raise & snow (or raise & break, or raise & pat)? Honestly, I can find a good argument for just about every single play. Flop advice is also appreciated.

Sweet, like seeing the lowball hand here...

On flop, I think I prefer betting in positioin when we improve and get checked to.

On 2nd draw, our draw is too good to not assume we're going to draw I think? We're roughly 45% to improve (12 J/T/9, 4 8's, 4 7's) well enough that we're going to call a river bet if he doesn't pat, and obviously 8 outs from a strong enough hand to bet (though I doubt we can say there are still 8 outs when he bets second draw).

I think there's a lot of merit to snowing here as well - the bet on 2nd draw could simply be due to Hero drawing 2, but I think calling > snowing > folding.

call me a noob, but 'snowing'?

bluffing by standing pat and betting

Thanks for clearing that up.. BTW, is that you on my table "slycebu" on pokerstars 1/2.. if so, sorry about the suckout

i don't know if it was a good play or not, preflop i decided to call as i thought i had decent odds to do so, UTG is going to always call and figured MP had a decent hand to be raising a limper from his position. My read on the guys at the time was, UTG was semi ok, but nothing spectacular, i think he would definately pay off light, MP seemed to be a solid player, at the time i assumed it was a CC member, but i still wasn't sure at the time. It was an interesting hand, as i kind of knew it was the CC member, but i didnt know if he knew who i was, or if he knew that i knew he was a CC member, in any case, i just put him on something better than average.

Flop hits, complete miss, should i just fold this, i decided to peel as i thought there was some chance i still had the best hand, also if any danger card hit i was giong to attempt to bluff raise it. any heart 5 68 those type cards, otherwise id just let my hand go.

Luckily i hit my 3, i feel i should have capped the turn here, pretty big mistake there i feel. rivers standard.

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is Button with ,
UTG calls, MP raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, 2 folds, UTG calls

Flop: (7.5 SB) , , (3 players)
UTG checks, MP bets, Hero calls, 1 fold

Turn: (4.75 BB) (2 players)
MP bets, Hero raises, MP 3-bets, Hero calls

River: (10.75 BB) (2 players)
MP bets, Hero raises, MP calls

Total pot: $29.50 (14.75 BB) | Rake: $1

Originally Posted by WiZZiM

Thanks for clearing that up.. BTW, is that you on my table "slycebu" on pokerstars 1/2.. if so, sorry about the suckout

Yeah, that's me, what's your sn? lol, so many suckouts today I'm not sure which one you're referring to...

lol, that one. Absolutely cap the turn, I'm showing alot of strength w this line, so I'm never folding, but you're almost certainly ahead w a very hidden set.

pf, I never call here, going to fold the flop too often, and I don't like to float a hand that is likely to flop three overcards (and I would've folded the flop ).

That means I don't setmine the btn - doesn't mean it's right, pointing it out to get reactions.

yeah, knew as soon as i called that i mucked it up

my SN is 'ieatsfish' as soon as you sat it i kinda thought it had to be you, a quick google search to find out where lubicity was, and i knew it had to be you.

How about my flop and preflop rationale? am i on the right track here do you think?

Set mining the button is fine here with the limper already in the pot.

Flop peel is dubious, and I'm not sure I cap the turn either. With your flat pre, that turn gives you a TON of flushes, straights, and maybe 34. If villain thinks you're a random weak/passive donkey, then I'd just flat the turn, as he's showing crazy strength. I think Sly has a flush, a bigger set, KQh, AhK, or AhA here almost always when he 3-balls here.

Hand 0: 61.163% { AcAh, AdAh, AhAs, KK, 77, 44, AhKh, AhQh, AhJh, AhTh, KhQh, KhJh, KhTh, QhJh, QhTh, JhTh, Jh9h, Th9h, AcKh, AdKh, AhKc, AhKd, AhKs, AsKh, KcQh, KdQh, KhQc, KhQd, KhQs, KsQh }
Hand 1: 38.837% { 3d3s }


And on sly's hand with the sixes, I think raising > completing if it will knock out the BB a good percentage of the time. Also, the six is a great card to bet/3-bet, so deffo do not go for a check/raise on the turn.

Also, here's what 2+2 thinks about the deuce hand I posted: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/21...ll-pot-798867/

I like the point on the deuce hand that with position, we're not going to get outplayed on the river.

Ok, back to FL...

View hand 736006
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is BTN with 8 9
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, BB raises, UTG calls, MP1 calls, CO calls, Hero calls

Flop: (10.5 SB) T 6 2 (5 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, MP1 raises, CO 3-bets, Hero ???

UTG is 32/5/.9 over 44 hands
MP1 is 35/7/1.2 over 339 hands
CO is 38/12/1.4 over 111 hands
BB is 19/9/2.5

Here's my thought process here...let me know what you think.

Pre-Flop: I normally try to resist the temptation of playing unsuited connectors, but with three very fishy players already limping and me being on the BT, I feel its Ok to limp. Call after BB raise is standard.

Flop: Here's where it get's tricky. Is it really bad to call here? I'm getting 5.8:1 on a call on a 10.5:1. So if I call, I'm going to have to win 5 small bets on the remaining rounds. Given the action so far, and the fact that three fish are still in makes me believe this shouldn't be too difficult to do. This makes me feel a call is justified, especially since the 7 gives me the nuts. However, given the action so far I've got to think someone is sitting on a set so I have to dodge the board pairing...not to mention any backdoor flushes that may hit. Furthermore, then I run into the issue of feeling pot-committed on the turn to see the river...depending on what it brings. Just trying to get an idea of what my implied odds are on this hand and whether a call is justified?

The flop will be jammed, so you're really having to pay 4 to win (10.5+4+4+4+4) if everyone calls, or 6.6:1. If you're going to play this hand, I'd cap the flop myself, and I'd probably play it that way. Just kinda a nasty spot.

Raise flop? c/c turn?

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
Limit Holdem $0.50(BB) Poker Stars

SB ($16.80)
Hero ($41.25)
UTG ($12.65)
UTG+1 ($208)
CO ($56.15)
BTN ($13.15)

Dealt to Hero 9♦ 8♦

UTG raises to $1, UTG+1 calls $1, CO calls $1, BTN calls $1, fold, Hero calls $0.50

FLOP ($5.25) J♠ 5♥ 7♣
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, CO bets $0.50, BTN raises to $1, Hero calls $1, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, CO calls $0.50

TURN ($8.25) J♠ 5♥ 7♣ 6♦
Hero checks, CO checks, BTN bets $1, Hero raises to $2, CO folds, BTN calls $1

RIVER ($12.25) J♠ 5♥ 7♣ 6♦ Q♥
Hero bets $1, BTN raises to $2, Hero raises to $3, BTN calls $1

I like the way you played it Sly.

My thoughts barring specific reads on villains..

Flop: I think a call is good since I don't think we really want to be driving opponents out with our draw. Can't raise for value at this point and a c/r 3bet might likely drive out the CO forcing us to play our draw heads up OOP which can get tricky since we probably don't have much in the way of fold equity if we miss.

Turn: I think a call is risky because there isn't any guarantee that CO will come along too. If he folds we've missed out on a bet we could have gotten by c/r the button. However, if the BT is likely to fold to our c/r, I'd probably be more apt to just call. I dont think we want to leave that bet on the table.

Say we just call the turn... Do we bet out river or try a c/r with the risk it gets checked around?

I should point out that I play full ring, so there may be some 6 max nuances that I'm missing.

I'm still new and feeling my way around the game, so I'm not sure about the nuances. Though the FR hand you posted made my head ache, I never see that many limpers in 6max...

Yeah, I was thinking about the river getting checked behind, I wanted to lead the river and felt more comfortable betting the river if I bet the turn. Mebbe lead the turn, my hand may not be quite as face up?

Donking the turn makes some sense though I think, what do you think?

Originally Posted by c9h13no3

The flop will be jammed, so you're really having to pay 4 to win (10.5+4+4+4+4) if everyone calls, or 6.6:1. If you're going to play this hand, I'd cap the flop myself, and I'd probably play it that way. Just kinda a nasty spot.

Good point about the odds I was getting. In reality, the BB folded and everyone else called. I was using the odds of what actually happened in my analysis instead of what I could expect to happen. A big no-no.

You're right though, I have to expect that flop to get capped. If I do it myself, at least there's the potential of getting a free river if I miss...although not likely it occurs given the action. On the other hand, I guess my concern with capping would be scarring off flop callers and given my odds I need all the bets I can get. But should this even be a concern?

I can see the value of donking in LHE, i mean its not something i really consider too much in NL, but in limit it's something i need to work into my game pretty quickly. I like the way you played it, C/C turn could be ok, if you knew CO was a bit spewy, keep him in the hand, then go for a check raise on river. if not, then id just raise it, as mentioned, dont want to miss out on a bet.

Originally Posted by slycbnew

I'm still new and feeling my way around the game, so I'm not sure about the nuances. Though the FR hand you posted made my head ache, I never see that many limpers in 6max...

Yeah, I was thinking about the river getting checked behind, I wanted to lead the river and felt more comfortable betting the river if I bet the turn. Mebbe lead the turn, my hand may not be quite as face up?

Donking the turn makes some sense though I think, what do you think?

I have yet to aquire the necessary fortitude to attempt 6-max. Someday maybe...

I agree with leading the river. Can't really risk getting nothing.

Donking the turn is an interesting idea. Might have a chance to trap CO if BTN decides to still raise. Plus, think you're rigt that donking may keep your hand a bit more hidden. Even if both players call you're not really any worse off than c/r, plus your hand is a bit more hidden so you might get more action on the river.

Donking the turn makes the most sense to me.

1) If button was raising a hand like 46 or 9T for a free card, he doesn't get to check back the turn.

2) We allow the CO in, and don't face him with two bets cold, as opposed to check/raising. And even if it goes, donk, CO calls, BTN calls, we still get the same number of bets in the pot.

3) We can possibly bet/3-bet instead of check/raising if button raises, which is pretty awesome.

Well, second session of LHE played, pretty horrible really, have a few hands id like to discuss, especially concerning capping PF with hands like AK, Not sure if it's a good play to cap with hands such as that.

Also, had no real idea what to do postflop, i figured i had outs, but how many i wasnt sure, i guess i cant really include all aces and kings as outs here, is this a fold on the turn?

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is SB with K, A
UTG raises, MP 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero caps, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP calls

Flop: (13 SB) 6, 8, Q (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, MP calls, Hero calls

Turn: (9.5 BB) 7 (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, MP calls, Hero calls

River: (12.5 BB) 10 (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, MP raises, Hero folds, UTG calls

Total pot: $33 (16.5 BB) | Rake: $1

One more, just to keep you guys on your toes

After i raise UTG, with 4 callers, a flop that is semi-wet, is this a c-bet, C/C, C/F.

I figured it hits their calling ranges pretty well, and theres not too many turn cards i really like, an ace may be the only clean out, is this correct thinking? or too nitty?

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, Q
Hero raises, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls

Flop: (8 SB) J, 6, 9 (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, 1 fold, BB calls, Hero folds

Turn: (5 BB) 7 (2 players)
BB checks, Button bets, BB calls

River: (7 BB) 4 (2 players)
BB checks, Button bets, 1 fold

Total pot: $14 (7 BB) | Rake: $0.50