Leading the turn

#1 20th August 2011, 2:30 AM

I've read stuff in the HH and saw videos where it is mentioned lines like: "call flop, lead turn".

I can find reasons to lead the flop and the river but I honestly don't get why we should lead the turn without initiative.

So what is the logic of calling the flop and leading the turn?

#2 20th August 2011, 4:04 AM

I'll lead the turn to disguise if i hit the flop; often times calling a c-bet (a.k.a. smooth calling) the flop andthen leading w/ a raise on the turn, also to prevent a potential suckout; its all variale of course psitions, opps. range of play/ player type; sometimes leading is the best, plus if river comes and opp. hits or not, u may be psychologically 2nd guessin urself; or u may then be behind. does this hep any? Or r u asking more?

#3 20th August 2011, 4:37 AM

my example I guess is having a pocket pair (you can switch poistions around to check call flop and bet lead turn also, and I sometiems do this with air if ther cbet stat is high and there turn cbet stats is non exsitant.)

example in position:
Pre
Villain HJ - bet,
Hero CO call
with tens

flop 6d,9c,4h

Villain bets
Hero call,

Turn 2c
Villain checks
Hero Bet leads
we can get value from worse hands and get value with draw hands.

#4 20th August 2011, 4:47 AM

By leading I mean we are OOP without initiative.

#5 21st August 2011, 12:42 AM

Somebody did this to me today and i noted it because, i quite enjoyed his play, i think the flop was Q22, i was IP he checked, and i put in a c-bet which he called the turn was a T and he bet out 2/3 of the pot. I had something like AK and just couldnt call it. Im wondering if against the right person doing stuff like this will be +EV all the time. Something i will have to think about.

#6 21st August 2011, 3:56 AM

I c/c flop, donk turn sometimes for a bluff. It's similar to a c/r on the flop.

#7 21st August 2011, 11:04 AM

I suppose it is like a check raise on the flop, probably costs a similar amount and a lot of the time it will buy us the river card too...

#8 21st August 2011, 4:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CheckraiseLife

my example I guess is having a pocket pair (you can switch poistions around to check call flop and bet lead turn also, and I sometiems do this with air if ther cbet stat is high and there turn cbet stats is non exsitant.)

example in position:
Pre
Villain HJ - bet,
Hero CO call
with tens

flop 6d,9c,4h

Villain bets
Hero call,

Turn 2c
Villain checks
Hero Bet leads
we can get value from worse hands and get value with draw hands.

Thats not leading because we're IP. I think leading is like being OOP, calling the c-bet then betting the turn. Betting when being checked to on the turn after calling a c-bet is basically just floating and happens a lot.

#9 1st September 2011, 3:01 PM

Usually it's a way to control the pot size, to take control away from our opponant, and to avoid getting semibluffed on the flop. I used it at times in MTT play, often times it will go check/check on the river.

#10 2nd September 2011, 3:12 AM

it feels less FOS than donking the flop; a lot of people reflexively raise flop donks with anything.

#11 2nd September 2011, 10:01 AM

its good vs high cbettors/low turn cbettors where you have a marginal SD hand and alot of bad rivers can come which put you in a tough spot to call or to protect our equity.

Also is a good line as an OOP float vs wide stealer/high cbet %, alternative to a c/r bluff

#12 2nd September 2011, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurn8

its good vs high cbettors/low turn cbettors where you have a marginal SD hand and alot of bad rivers can come which put you in a tough spot to call or to protect our equity.

Also is a good line as an OOP float vs wide stealer/high cbet %, alternative to a c/r bluff

Very interesting. I've considered this for draws. I'm up to c/r OOP for value all day long, but if I have a draw a semi-bluff c/r OOP does not price me in for a shove on the turn.

I think it's clearly a matter of villain read. Passive players will always call or fold and we take their initiative but aggressive players IP may very well make a move.

#13 2nd September 2011, 10:27 AM

alot of standard regs will cbet then only double good barrell cards so I find donking can get them to fold their air/marginals.
It also looks very strong if we c/c donk donk river, its cool to do with back door equity or gutters, turning FDs, turning Ax naked FD but yeah as you said depends on player and is deffo a non standard line to mix it up abit

#14 3rd September 2011, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RVladimiro

Very interesting. I've considered this for draws. I'm up to c/r OOP for value all day long, but if I have a draw a semi-bluff c/r OOP does not price me in for a shove on the turn.

I think it's clearly a matter of villain read. Passive players will always call or fold and we take their initiative but aggressive players IP may very well make a move.

If you CR draw on the flop and brick the turn, lead enough on turn to price yourself in to stack off.

#15 3rd September 2011, 10:41 PM

Like Jurn said it takes advantage of high % c-bettors, especially when we have a hand that can't really ch/c flop and turn.

Two scenarios. Villain cbets tons but checks a lot of turns, we can donk turn and make him fold marginal hands whilst simplifying the hand for us. Or we have a marginal hand against a high % cbettor that can't ch/c twice and controls the pot size whilst often getting him to fold similar hands.

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