Layed down AKs OOP pre-flop to a 5-bet with 1.75:1... good fold?

Ok guys well this one really got me puzzled. I feel that OOP the 4-bet by me was the right move. Obviously I had him down to the three obvious hands though KK and AA seemed less likely due to me having one of each. I know there are a lot of idiots at this level but many are not completely clueless. I dont think a lot of people would 5-bet with QQ, expecially IP. I was getting 1.75:1 on the call but managed to let it go.

This turned out to be the right decision for the hand... I think?
(Would I still have had odds if villain was on a random mix of AA and KK?)

Was it the most +EV longterm choice?

Thanks and regards as always!

Frank.

Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($6.77)
Button ($5)
SB ($7.60)
BB ($2)
UTG ($1.65)
Hero (MP1) ($10.74)
MP2 ($4.76)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A, K
UTG calls $0.05, Hero bets $0.20, 1 fold, CO raises to $0.60, 4 folds, Hero raises to $1.80, CO raises to $6.77 (All-In), 1 fold

Total pot: $3.72 | Rake: $0

Results below:
CO had K, K.
Outcome: CO won $3.72

What was his 3bet % .. why did you 4-bet?

He was a relative unknown. I don't allow my HUD to cloud my judgement until I have 100 hands stored, its set that way.

Well if I was IP I would have called but the way I see it, if I call out of position I have to hit the flop, I have given away the initiative and I have less info on villlain. I see it a bit like calling a 4-bet with AK, even if an A or a K comes you could still be in trouble... I wouldn't do it.

Atleast if I 4-bet him and he calls I will know where I am after the flop comes. If he 5-bets me I can put him of 2 and a half hands!

Perhaps my 4-bet size should have been different.

perhaps it should have been 0

What is the 3-bet % of the average villian in your game?

When you look at your HUD what is the most common 3-bet % value you see?

Hmmm... I do kinda see your point.

I have 3197 people tracked so far at this level. average 2.77.
I don't think its quite in the QQ+,AK territory?

I am not sure I could bring myself to CALL AKs OOP which leaves only one other option!

EDIT:

I suppose looking back, if I had the PF3-bet info of 2.77 I would have probably put him of QQ seeing as I had an A and a K. Maybe calling and hoping for an A or a K on the flop would have been the right move?

AK isnt ahead of a 2.7% 3bet range and there arent all that many hands in a 2.7% range that would ever fold to a raise.

So you fold.

Everyone wants to play the 3bet 4bet 5bet shove game but you cant play it on your own, your opponents have to be playing it too! With 3bet % this low, they arent playing this game they are betting purely for value and you are paying them off.

o....k

Lol, right it might take a while to get my novice microstakes head around that one but thanks for the info! I guess it could save me quite a few $1.20s in the long term if I get it into my strategy!

Put the range into pokerstove and see for yourself how AK does.

A lot of people will say this is weak but the average villian under 50NL has a 3-bet % of under 3.5%

AK isnt ahead of a 3.5% range so just fold to anyone playing this tight.

When you start playing against people who are 3-betting wide enough to play 3bet 4bet 5bet shove firstly their 3bet range will be wider at least 6-8% but also they will be 3betting almost exclusively from the BTN and the Blinds (maybe the CO) so its not going to be an 8% across the board.

Figures of 12% from the blinds are common.

So until you see villains exhibiting this kind of 3-betting behaviour you just fold all but AA and KK

4bet/folding AK is wrong. Your options should be folding to the 3bet, calling the 3bet or 4bet/calling depending on villain.

Ok I just looked through my tracker and filtered for calling 3-bets with AK.

It does appear that I do better when IP. I think it will take more convincing for me to start folding AK often to a 3-bet when I am IP!
(obviously villain would usually be in the blinds but if he isn't and is limp-re-raising then he is just screaming ACES or KINGS at me!)

But...

From now on I will strongly consider folding AK to a 3-bet when OOP unless I have good reason to believe villain is 3-betting a wider range or 3betting light.

Did you mean calling a 4-bet with AK?! surely this is a sure-fire way to fail.

Dont call 3bets OOP EVER!

Don't be too quick to label villains as light 3-betters. Light 3betting will not be the norm until you are at much higher stakes. (the temptation is to see someone 3bet twice in a row and make all kinds of wrong adjustments).

No he means call a shove after the 4-bet.

AK has too much equity to fold after 4betting it.

However this dosent mean that you can blindly 4bet and then call a shove, what it means is that if you couldnt call a shove with AK then you should not 4bet it because once you 4bet it you are committed to calling a shove.

If you were wrong to 4bet it then the mistake only gets compounded by calling the shove, however if you were correct to 4bet then calling the shove is also correct.

You were not correct to 4bet!

Some good stuff here!

but...

I am sure you mean EVER, except if you have raised with a PP, you get 3-betted and stacks are deep enough to set mine?

Just wanted to clear that one up!

Also fold AK more IP against players who dont 3bet more than 3.5%
You are not in good shape.

Calling IP is not all that great because say villian has TT. He is ahead preflop thats why he 3bets. You call.

Flop is Q 7 3. He c-bets what would you do?

Flop is A 7 3. He c-bets what do you do? How much more money does a hand like TT put into a 3bet pot OOP with an ace on the board?

Flop is A T 3. You go broke

Flop is A T 3 and villian has AQ .. oh wait is his 3bet range wide enough to include AQ? at 2.7% it isnt!

Until the 3bet range starts to contain some dominated aces Ak dosent do that well because the Ace on the board kills your action when you hit.

set mining isnt simply about stack sizes.

If villian has an extremely tight 3bet range then yes you could consider set mining if you can get a min of 15-20:1

As villians 3bet range widens your implied odds drop because if he starts 3betting AJ and hits his ace he realises that he wont always have the best hand and so will play postflop more cautiously.

On top of that sets make more money IP than OOP.. so I wouldnt recommend set mining OOP in 3bet pots unless your opponent can never lay down AA and stacks are huge.

Set mining is a bit overrated.

bad players love to do it and will call any bet with a PP, but your results should show you make far more with sets IP than OOP.

listen to stu

I call 3-bets OOP pretty often against players who 3-bet a very wide range (since they usually just auto-cbet the flop as well). Especially with strong hands like AA-QQ, AKs.

Having a nil calling range OOP vs a 3bet is perfectly good advice for a microstakes player. Never say ''never'' though - every play has it`s place. Wouldn't be anywhere near as big of a mistake to fold too often OOP vs a 3bet than to call too much and/or play poorly postflop though.

I had a very similar situation yesterday. 6-max, AKs, unknown (4 hands, hadn't played one). I 4-bet to 36bb and got 5 bet shoved. I called, he had AA obv. I was actually thinking about it and wondering if I could ever fold against an unknown at 10nl 6-max, and I don't think I can/would be correct.

Just as a general guide at 6-max, against an unknown after committing 30-40bb's with AKs, is it ever correct to fold? I don't think so.

100bb deep, no.

As for set mining I've come to the conclusion that only calling IP against Tags with Small PP's is the way to go. IP you can win pots without your set and can get cheap showdowns when they have over cards. I'll 3-bet small PP's from the blinds vs button or lose cut off. When you get to pairs around 77-99+ you start getting strong enough to flat as a made hand, even in the blinds against most opponents.

Yes.

Once you 4bet in general, 100bb deep, it's going to be a mistake not to call a shove or shove over a 5bet. Thing is usually if it starts to approach an incorrect call, it's usually because villain's range is so tight that 4betting in the first place is a mistake.

I'd guess that at 10nl that might actually be the case against a lot of the nittier regulars who have yet to find out about 3betting light, and never 3bet without KK+ or whatever.

if u whave chips or you don't have chips then that determines what you should do