KK........on the button

#1 22nd August 2007, 11:37 AM

Hello

how play KK on the button when a whole table limp in ?

I'v played it like the pro's (lol).
5 times the big blinds... and the SB limped in with ATunsuited).
He won the hand with TT5JA(the flop gave him the nuts).
And on the river he got an Ace.
Yeah i lost my whole stack.
Now i do understand that he had luck.............but with the amateurs(my league ) you can expect anything.

Now while i was steaming on the table another amateur told me to go next time all in ......

What do you think?
At least he won't be limpin in with ATunsuited (SB)
PS: i find Allin a bit stupid but after all at least you win the chips

"Better win a small pot than loose a big one"

Neo

#2 22nd August 2007, 12:03 PM

the flop didn't give him the nuts
you still had 2 outs (the other two kings)

going all in with KK depends on the table and what your objective is
are you trying to get callers?
are you trying to get everyone to fold?

if you want everyone to fold, then go all in, everyone would probably fold... emphasis on "probably"...
if you wanted to minimize the field and go heads up, then you were able to accomplish that, it was just a favorable board for him

#3 22nd August 2007, 5:35 PM

It would be a lot more helpful if you could give us a hand history with:

Stack sizes
Blind levels
Buy-in
Table-size
Etc.

As it is though, with the whole table limping, you need to raise, and raise substantially! A good rule of thumb is 3xbb + 1bb for every limper.

#4 24th August 2007, 12:23 AM

i would push all in here, that way you can knock those marginal hands out of the way so they don't have a chance to catch like the SB did.

#5 24th August 2007, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by i win sometimes

i would push all in here, that way you can knock those marginal hands out of the way so they don't have a chance to catch like the SB did.

He didn't even tell us blind and stack sizes, but unless the stacks were really short, all-in is virtually never the right move here.

#6 24th August 2007, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juiceeQ

A good rule of thumb is 3xbb + 1bb for every limper.

This is the most widely accepted raise sizing PF, and the one I use all the time. The only exception, at the smaller buy-ins, is level 1 and maybe level 2, but that's just me.

So, w/o knowing stacks, blinds, buy-in, etc, and assuming you're playing a full table and you were on the button, it means you had 5 limpers in the pot when it was your turn to act.

So following that rule juicee gave you the proper raise should have been 8BB's. 5BB's is too small. It still might not make the SB fold, especially if it was level 1 (which I kind of suspect with all those limpers), but in any case sizing raises correctly is very important, not only PF but on all betting rounds.

#7 25th August 2007, 2:24 AM

The last thing you want to do is let the limpers stay in the hand. A healthy raise is imperative. I would say minimum 10x BB. Under no circumstances let the A3 offsuit in middle position stay in there and flop a pair, or the big blind see a free flop with rags and wake up with a set. Getting cute with limpers is just begging to get cracked. Rain chips on 'em from the button. If everybody folds, so be it. At least you've drug the blinds and the limper's minimums, and you've kept the table honest. But chances are you'll get at least one ill-advised caller who can pay you off.

#8 25th August 2007, 4:55 AM

no i think all in is a bad play..
you have a huge hand and u want some action, i think a big raise is a good play and u encourage a call by a weaker hand ..
dont forget that u dont HAVE to go broke with KK..
just and unlucky flop nothing u can do..

#9 25th August 2007, 10:15 AM

A little bit more information would be helpful.

You narrowed the field to one player preflop?
How big are the blinds? At the beginning at the tourney with 10/20 blinds at stacks with 1000 or 1500, players would easily call a 5BB bet. If the whole table limps in and there are 9-10 players you just bet half the pot. So for a limper it is just 40 to call and win 150, good odds I would say and with AT I would like to see a flop.

How was the betting on the flop? When do you put all your chips at risk? You say you lost your entire stack? Sometimes u must know when to release a hand or when you are beaten. Especially in a tourney.

#10 27th August 2007, 9:49 PM

If it were me i would do the 3BB + 1BB for every limper, effective manuever but you dont wanna run into a guy with AA who limped, all in generally not the best decision here.

#11 27th August 2007, 10:43 PM

Going all in with KK is rarely the right move in my experience, someone who limps with A10 is just as likely to call you, I have seen it happen many times !

That is good for you obvioulsy, but it's better to make a solid bet, and at least you still have decisions left to make to save your self

#12 28th August 2007, 2:12 AM

going all in preflop turns a skill game into gambling, I don't like it at all.

with KK,remember that people who are holding AK-A10 can call and hit a pair of aces, which leaves u with only 2 outs,
I would raise preflop like said
but, with a flop like that probably fold

#13 1st September 2007, 2:51 PM

i'd push all in

ROLL TIDE !

#14 3rd September 2007, 6:06 PM

Sometimes you just lose. We can argue about 5x/10x/all-in but sometimes...

goldog

#15 3rd September 2007, 9:07 PM

i love kk because you know you already have something but in your play just call the blinds then next hand bet a little and then little more then a lot

#16 5th September 2007, 9:36 PM

no i disagree with the just calling..

too many times have i tried to slow play my monster and by the end others have caught and i am reluctant to lay down my big pocket pair..

you have to push enough to get the suited connectors and A low kickers out

#17 6th September 2007, 2:46 AM

i would like a slightly bigger raise considering the number of limpers although the guy may still have called depending on position and how he perceived his implied odds!

some fish see an ace and think its christmas, making it diffficult for you to push them off their hand regardless of the bet! bigger is better!!!

#18 6th September 2007, 5:52 AM

Usually depends on your stack too. But usually I'd bet about whatever is in the pot. You really either want all to fold or most.

Limpers usualy mean someone is playing Ace Rag. Ace Rag is not that big of a dog vs KK as you would like.

#19 6th September 2007, 5:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neophyzer

Hello

how play KK on the button when a whole table limp in ?

I'v played it like the pro's (lol).
5 times the big blinds... and the SB limped in with ATunsuited).- I assume by this that you saw a flop?
He won the hand with TT5JA(the flop gave him the nuts). - then you went all-in on the flop when first to act when there were two tens on board and if so, bad play by you
And on the river he got an Ace.
Yeah i lost my whole stack.
Now i do understand that he had luck.............but with the amateurs(my league ) you can expect anything.

Now while i was steaming on the table another amateur told me to go next time all in ......

What do you think?
At least he won't be limpin in with ATunsuited (SB)
PS: i find Allin a bit stupid but after all at least you win the chips

"Better win a small pot than loose a big one"

Neo

See comments in red, because with a flop like that, you holding KK and being first to act, would have been an easy fold if you had not went all-in on the flop.
Personally I prefer to raise 8-10xBB with a large PP early in any type tourney, but then move to standard betting during the mid-late stages as the blinds are considerably large.

#20 8th September 2007, 4:35 PM

I would say you played the hand right. He shouldnt have called a big raise like that. Cant beat yourself up because of some donkish move by someone else. remember that luck only wins in the short run.

#21 8th September 2007, 6:36 PM

if i get KK at the button and everyone around me limp it... i'd put a bet to she where people stands.. they will either fold, call or re raise. for those that folded and call you can rest assure that they mostly fishing for a hand and only wants to see a flop... trying to eliminate them will be to your advantage. keep and eye on the re raiser keep in mind the only hand that can beat you preflop is AA and watch out what the flop brings!

#22 8th September 2007, 7:10 PM

i think you need to slowly milk the money out of them. Bet a small moderate amount that they will likely call, but will still benefit to you.

#23 8th September 2007, 7:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinedown.45

See comments in red, because with a flop like that, you holding KK and being first to act, would have been an easy fold if you had not went all-in on the flop.
Personally I prefer to raise 8-10xBB with a large PP early in any type tourney, but then move to standard betting during the mid-late stages as the blinds are considerably large.

He's not first to act, he's on the button...

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