KK

I have an argument with a friend of mine about a play to make in early position with KK. 3/4ths of a way through a tournament I have KK under the gun, what is the better play here, raise 2x the BB, 3x, or limp? By the way how this particular hand worked is, I am in 7th place, with 25 left. I would just like to hear some discussion about this play.

My thoughts are to do a standard raise of 3 times, this eliminates an early position caller. I don't want an early position caller because it allows the button or blinds to call with some kind of suited connector hand, or a suited A. I like the 3 times the blind raise. This may be easier to get heads up with a raiser that may be short stacked or just someone making a play hoping it could be a race when you are sitting with a great hand. I think playing KK out of position with 3 callers can be a hard play to get away from if someone makes a play after the flop when you price everyone out of a draw, but there is a reraise, could have 2 pair, or flopped a set.

I can see this happening with the min raise though, that an AT calls, or AJ, or something like that and it is a 10 high flop you bet, get reraised, then you just maximized a huge pot there. I think it is a risky play overall, but it could give you a bigger reward.

I just think this is a good discussion and would like some input on this play, and what is optimal.

raise it up 3x. If an A comes on the flop I would be very cautious! If theres no A then feel free to try and extract the most money possible! But do NOT slow play! if an A comes on the turn or river chances are you are beat!

this. at least 3-4x raise pf and depending on your opponents who called, they could have an ace or be loose and call with something less.

At very aggressive tables you can get away with limping, having someone in MP bet and then raising them a good deal of chips. You'll see this occasionally but you really can't go wrong raising with KK; the raise should really be your default play.

I absolutely agree with you. KK is not a hand you want to limp in with in early position. Any limper could catch a good hand. Plus you definitly want a bigger pot. KK is the obvious favorite, and you should definitly make people commit there money so that you win as much as you can. But there are sommee occasions in which you could limp in. If the table is veryy veryy lose, and its a sure bet that someone will raise you, you could definitly just call the blind and wait for that reraise. You wouldn't want your raise to scare those loose people off, and this could make you gain a good sum of money.

You were right with the first part, but I have to disagree with the second part. If the table is very loose you definately want to raise it up so that you only get a call from 1 or 2 players. Even with KK you don't want half the table calling you.

As far as what I would do, well...I would raise up 3x big blind in almost all circumstances. Sometimes a min raise looks like a steal so you will get re-raised and then you can go all-in and double up. I guess it does depend on your table image and how the table has been playing.

Raising this late in a tourney is usually always the best play i agree. If you know you have maniacs behind you, limping and re-raising can work, though I prefer to do this early in a tourney when you almost certainly have an idiot who will do your dirty work.

with kings ,i like to x4,which normally gets a call ,maybe 2,if no ace with 2 callers i,m all-in ,1 caller and a pot and a half raise,maybe more depends on the danger of the flop really

Normally under most circumstances 4-5 big blinds,but you are three quarters thru the tournament..i might step my bet up just a bit,and as stated earlier be very leary of an ace..but depending on my feel of the table..preflop i,m going to try n get as much into the center as i can,because other than someone holding rockets your pretty much 60-40 fav on the hand preflop

Depends of the others players. But i normally raise 4-5 big blinds ...

this pair deserves a big raise 3,4xBB.....but u must be careful if there is an A on the flop, or chances for flush, str8 or a pair ; if there are not then u should raise 4,5xBB....then see the turn and do the above again(check for flush ,str8 chances,or any A)and bet 1/2 pot or go all in depending on what u have

4x bb should knock out any small pairs looking to make a set. If they have AK or AQ they'll probably call so you know what youre up against if you get callers. If you make a set with no flush draw on the board then go after them.

I would raise KK in early pos.3 to 4 X.
depending of course on the table image and of course on my image at the table.
Do people at my table think im a loose maniac,if so then bump it up 5 or 6X you will probably get called.
If you are a tight image player then back off a bit.
Just depends what you think you can make of it you know.

KK in a full table is best played heads up. I can't figure out why people would slow play them in early position. The more people in the pot; your advantage drops like a skydiver without a parachute.

As others have said, raise DO NOT LIMP!
I'd raise at least 4x BB.

K's always seem to attract an Ace.
Eliminate all the others at the table or at least as many as possible.

If you see the flop and no Ace appears then you can take a second shot at the pot. I sometimes reduce my bet as if I have a small pair and that 10 or Jack made me nervous.
Just watch out for the re-raiser, there maybe a set out there.

If you make the intial bet 4x, usually those loose players will go away.

I prefer to get a small pot easily than risk a big pot on the river.

Well, it depends on many other things!
How did you play before, how did your opponents play before?
What is the normal raise size at the table, are their short stacks behind you, etc.
It is not that easy, like you see...

I agree with the majority of the thread... you need to raise. Slow playing leaves you vulnerable to A and a rag.

I love how everyone discredits slow playing immediately, as if it's never a good strategy. You have to mix up your play here. More often than not, you should probably raise, but there's nothing wrong with limping here and hoping for someone to raise you. Mix up your play, avoid becoming predictable.

with kk i would raise 2 times the big blind, re raise if someone raises from the button, but if someone raises you from the small blind and you are in the big blind, i would flat call.

this play disguises your hand very well and will make you money. mixing up your play with kk is a smart thing to do.

Such is the nature of discussing poker online. The discussions are unfortunately superficial, which is not the fault of anyone; it's just that every game is different and has so many nuances that a blanket answer is never perfect. Nobody presenting a case for analysis can accurately portray the particular game he was in using less than 1500 words.

I raise with KK almost all the time. But just yesterday I was in a tourney and got it in early position. The guy to my left was raising it up just about every hand. I had not been playing many hands, so maybe if I raised it would get his attention and he wouldn't want to get too cute with me. So I limped, he bumped it up like 5X, and I had him right where I wanted him.

KK late stages UTG. Well, the fact you are playing any hand from UTG with a good sized stack says you have a hand. You can rule out the min raise because anyone behind you can see a cheap flop with a lower pair. You can rule out limping for the same reason. If I saw something like 99 after a UTG limp, I am happy to limp, and I'll even be folding AQ to this. So this is one of those spots where you can win a small one or lose a big one. Not what you wanted. I am somewhat borderline on that 3x raise if you have loose players at your table, so I'd be wanting to take the pot down here, preflop. So 3.5-4 BB range here is also acceptable, but this doesn't allow you to maximize value here. Seeing hands like big hands UTG sometimes disgusts me, but you definitely can't slow play

4x BB
If an A Flops ....
Careful .................

Dont get busted with KK post flop in an unraised pot!!
One of the biggest mistakes i see players make online is they limp with KK, QQ or even sometimes JJ, they get called in several spots and ALL the money goes in on the flop or turn. Its only then they discover they are up against 2 pair, a set or a made str8.

I have to agree with the majority and repeat what wes 747 says above as it is almost identical to what I would say and do.

I would raise up 3x big blind in almost all circumstances. Sometimes a min raise looks like a steal so you will get re-raised and then you can go all-in and double up. I guess it does depend on your table image and how the table has been playing.

mixing up by limpimg is dependent on certain factors (position, blinds, types of players behind you) and you need to be able to throw it on a dangerous flop without hesitation

I think the press directly for at least 5 BB oynun KK geldimi must increase. If you continue raise 5bb at turn and river. if no ace on table at last u must make all-in

Because of the stage you're at in the tourney, I would put out a standard raise of around 2.5x, in hopes that a shorter stack (on Low 'M') would come over the top & shove. Best case scenario obviously is if this gets flatted & then you come back over the flatcaller (something alot of players when they flat in this scenario don't think about). Okay.. now that would obviously be ideal.
Worst case scenario.. the EP limp & pray for a raiser (I don't like this one at all.. maybe in a donkroll).
And yes.... seeing a flop w KK & 3 callers can suck for sure (other day in OFC buyin, I raise 4x utg & actually get 3callers. Flop comes a harmless looking 8-8-2, my stack is barely bigger than the pot, I shove.. fold, fold.. call w 8-8 for quads, LOL).
The other night I watched a good MTT player (a reg. on Fulltilt avg.buyin $50) on the final table of the Fifty-Fifty, utg with 14left in the tourney. He puts out a standard raise, around 2.2x and gets called by BB. Flop comes Q-J-X, BB checks, he actually shoves (an overbet of 4x Pot... bad move).. BB calls w QJo. I'm putting this one out here to show that playing your KK is situational. In this guy's case, he put out his standard raise (if you watch higher buyin MTTs, standard raise when blinds get high is around 2.2 - 2.3x, relying on skilled post-flop play). BUT.. this guy's table had a few really loose players (calling stations & huge blind defenders) who weren't very experienced players online (I had a stat. program running as I find it gives me better reads on the players... sometimes I'll watch a few tables when a decent tourney is closing in on the final table,.. can be pretty interesting watching the likes of Moorman, gboro, etc.). In this particular situation and with the guy's M being at around 8, there basically going to be playing for stacks so I think he should've deviated from standard raise and come in with a bigger one.

In other words.... it all depends.
Not sure how many players your tournament started with, what the stack sizes were in relation to the blinds, whether or not there's any shorites on your table (or a huge bigstack bully), what the playing styles of your opponents are, your own table image.. etc. etc. I'm assuming you're already ITM and M's are low. In this case raise it up in hopes of getting it AI preflop. Min-raising sucks imo, so does limping. Some players like to throw in an occassional limp from EP on a short-handed table if there's been ALOT of aggressive shoving happening with super low M's & huge blinds. (again.. it is always situational).

If you feel you're right about how to play it.... my advice to you.. don't even bother arguing with your friend. Let him choose to believe what he/her believes. As long as you know what you're doing.. who cares.

Online at low stakes, this might work because people will call with anything. That being said, if you play at any kind of reasonable stakes or in a live game, this will never work, because 5 BB is simply too big of a raise. You won't get action on your kings, and you want more than blinds if you pick up a hand that big.

I concur with the Silverslugger....Mix it up an limp sometimes

For me it is a 3x raise to. Narrow the field and get rid of the cling-ons right away.