KC Note Taking

#1 12th July 2008, 7:57 AM

I have been on a mission to make some better quality posts on CC and give back to the community from what I've learned(The KC Strategy, ect.)So please make time to read this for it is a little long but good.

Player notes and Memory

Taking notes on other players in cash games and tournaments is, too me, a critical part in eventual either making more money in a cash game, or making it deeper in a tournament. This is a simple way to keep notes for memory purposes, almost like a note strategy. Please read, enjoy, then comment on what you think or how you take notes yourself.

Cash Games Notes: Taking notes in cash games can be a very helpful in the long run. Especially in cash games this holds true since you may run into a lot of other players on a regular basis. Remember this way of taking notes is mainly for those without a poker manager like poker tracker. Mainly because we will be taking notes on betting patterns and habits. This doesn't mean that those who use programs should not take notes, because there are other things to take notes on as well.

Tournament Notes: Taking notes in a tournament earlier may seem pointless since you will most likely move tables and away from them. I'm not saying that you should take notes on every single person and how they play AK, but if a bluff/move, a slow play/trap, or a big hand which has a memorable betting style to it, then you should take that note. Once it gets later in the game eventually you'll be right back at the same table and you'll have an advantage. Also, in tournaments I recommend taking the most notes on players after the bubble, since many play extremely tight or extremely loose you will not get correct reads on how they'll play after the bubble. Also I recommend taking notes on every single person at the final table, since they made it this far, you could see them again at another final table,

Easy Notes = Quicker Memory Connections: I think that making your notes as simple as possible can lead to an easier time of remembering down the road. So I will explain and give examples on how I take notes.

Poker software really helps out the player by providing each player with the option to take notes, usually by just right clicking and selecting Notes.
So lets say a hand like this happens:

Player 1
Player 2
Player 3
Hero
Player 5
Player 6
Player 7
Villain
Player 9

Dealt to Hero: As Kh (OTB)
All players fold except Villain who limps in UTG.
Hero: Raises 3 X the BB
Villain: Calls
Flop: Ad 7d 10s
Villain: Checks
Hero: Bets 2/3 the pot.
Villain: Calls
Turn: 3c
Villain: Checks
Hero: Bets 2/3 the pot
Villain: Calls
River: 8h
Hero: bets 2/3 the pot
Villian: goes all in
Hero: Calls
Villian: Shows 7c 7s

Now with all criticism aside about how the hand was played by Hero, this is just an example on how to take notes on the play that was made. We now realize that Villain had a set and was slow playing the whole time, so now we can take a note of this. Like I said I want to show you how to take notes for quicker remembrance down the road. So right click on the player and type this(also good to have the HH up to read):

Limped with small PP
most likely limps with PP range of 22-99
Slow played and Pushed on river
Fish

Also remember that many good players can switch gears, so make sure and try to take note of that too. Especially if they are fishy, because many fish play the same way all the time without thinking that you've caught on.
To add to that, try and have a ranking system for player. This also helps to quickly identify a persons habits and play. You don't have to use this exact list, you can actually make up your own names or add more.
For Example:

Bad Player: Fish
Calling Machine: Caller
Tight player: Rock
Aggressive: Aggro
Good Player: Shark

Now remember taking notes can be more technical than this, and this way of taking notes can have many different ways, like the "slow play" above can be used for other plays or habits, like what they bet PF with Big hands, or how many times the C-bet/shoot barrels. This is just a basic note taking tutorial to get you started and hopefully help others who would like make there notes easier to remember. Good Luck! And like I said please tell me what you think, or tell me what you think can be done to make this better!

#2 12th July 2008, 8:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingCurtis

I have been on a mission to make some better quality posts on CC and give back to the community from what I've learned(The KC Strategy, ect.)So please make time to read this for it is a little long but good.

Player notes and Memory

Taking notes on other players in cash games and tournaments is, too me, a critical part in eventual either making more money in a cash game, or making it deeper in a tournament. This is a simple way to keep notes for memory purposes, almost like a note strategy. Please read, enjoy, then comment on what you think or how you take notes yourself.

Cash Games Notes: Taking notes in cash games can be a very helpful in the long run. Especially in cash games this holds true since you may run into a lot of other players on a regular basis. Remember this way of taking notes is mainly for those without a poker manager like poker tracker. Mainly because we will be taking notes on betting patterns and habits. This doesn't mean that those who use programs should not take notes, because there are other things to take notes on as well.

Tournament Notes: Taking notes in a tournament earlier may seem pointless since you will most likely move tables and away from them. I'm not saying that you should take notes on every single person and how they play AK, but if a bluff/move, a slow play/trap, or a big hand which has a memorable betting style to it, then you should take that note. Once it gets later in the game eventually you'll be right back at the same table and you'll have an advantage. Also, in tournaments I recommend taking the most notes on players after the bubble, since many play extremely tight or extremely loose you will not get correct reads on how they'll play after the bubble. Also I recommend taking notes on every single person at the final table, since they made it this far, you could see them again at another final table,

Easy Notes = Quicker Memory Connections: I think that making your notes as simple as possible can lead to an easier time of remembering down the road. So I will explain and give examples on how I take notes.

Poker software really helps out the player by providing each player with the option to take notes, usually by just right clicking and selecting Notes.
So lets say a hand like this happens:

Player 1
Player 2
Player 3
Hero
Player 5
Player 6
Player 7
Villain
Player 9

Dealt to Hero: As Kh (OTB)
All players fold except Villain who limps in UTG.
Hero: Raises 3 X the BB
Villain: Calls
Flop: Ad 7d 10s
Villain: Checks
Hero: Bets 2/3 the pot.
Villain: Calls
Turn: 3c
Villain: Checks
Hero: Bets 2/3 the pot
Villain: Calls
River: 8h
Hero: bets 2/3 the pot
Villian: goes all in
Hero: Calls
Villian: Shows 7c 7s

Now with all criticism aside about how the hand was played by Hero, this is just an example on how to take notes on the play that was made. We now realize that Villain had a set and was slow playing the whole time, so now we can take a note of this. Like I said I want to show you how to take notes for quicker remembrance down the road. So right click on the player and type this(also good to have the HH up to read):

Limped with small PP
most likely limps with PP range of 22-99
Slow played and Pushed on river
Fish

Also remember that many good players can switch gears, so make sure and try to take note of that too. Especially if they are fishy, because many fish play the same way all the time without thinking that you've caught on.
To add to that, try and have a ranking system for player. This also helps to quickly identify a persons habits and play. You don't have to use this exact list, you can actually make up your own names or add more.
For Example:

Bad Player: Fish
Calling Machine: Caller
Tight player: Rock
Aggressive: Aggro
Good Player: Shark

Now remember taking notes can be more technical than this, and this way of taking notes can have many different ways, like the "slow play" above can be used for other plays or habits, like what they bet PF with Big hands, or how many times the C-bet/shoot barrels. This is just a basic note taking tutorial to get you started and hopefully help others who would like make there notes easier to remember. Good Luck! And like I said please tell me what you think, or tell me what you think can be done to make this better!

explain why u noted this guy a fish??

#3 12th July 2008, 8:46 AM

It was an example, to compare between the ranks. Not that a person who plays like that would be a fish, but like I say about the good players switching gears.....it helps to know that this guy is a fish and he'll most likely do it again<-this is the main point.....understand?

#4 12th July 2008, 8:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingCurtis

It was an example, to compare between the ranks. Not that a person who plays like that would be a fish, but like I say about the good players switching gears.....it helps to know that this guy is a fish and he'll most likely do it again<-this is the main point.....understand?

nope, still not seeing

he played the TPTK guy like a violin

, i would denote the AK guy the fish.

elaborate more pleez....

#5 12th July 2008, 10:03 AM

I think what KC means is he's likely to play mid pockets too much. Perhaps there were other similar hands that didn't hit in the past KC played against him that the villian played the same as if he'd hit. Re-read KC's post...He said the villians slow played a set and NOW we can take notes on this ( type of play). The "fish" note was obviously taken earlier at another game. Now KC can change his notes to suit his observations of the villians play.

Does that help clear up his post for you? Seemed pretty straight forward to me.

Not taking notes = good information lost forever and wasted time while waiting for the next hand imo.

KC, Kudo's for the post showing a lost hand that would be worthy of showing how one must adjust his notes to cover different plays made by a villian.

#6 12th July 2008, 2:35 PM

thanks AB and I understand why it can be confusing for some to see a person who slow plays a set and win,be called a fish. But this was just an example in order to cover more area of the note taking. Ussually it would be a good player doing this but than again, like the arguments made in other threads, slowplaying is bad in cash games.......building a pot is bettter since the other player wont always stack with a hand....so really this player may be a fish!?

#7 12th July 2008, 7:10 PM

Now that I look at this it seems really simple, like i am talking to ppl who know nothing lol, but I was trying to help begginers also, so if a mod could please move this to the beeginers section that would be better!

#8 13th July 2008, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingCurtis

Now that I look at this it seems really simple, like i am talking to ppl who know nothing lol, but I was trying to help begginers also, so if a mod could please move this to the beeginers section that would be better!

IT seems real simple u marked the guy as a FISH...WHY???

#9 13th July 2008, 12:54 AM

maby he marked him a fish cause he slowplayed a dangerious flop?

#10 13th July 2008, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daxter70

IT seems real simple u marked the guy as a FISH...WHY???

Which part of "this is an example" is tough to understand? Gist of OP: Take notes, it will help you in the long run; here are examples of things to note. It wasn't a real hand nor a thread on how to label other players. It was on the point of taking notes. Maybe it's time to get over the "fish" comment and see about adding something constructive to the theory behind what he was saying about note taking. kthx.

#11 13th July 2008, 1:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingCurtis

It was an example, to compare between the ranks. Not that a person who plays like that would be a fish, but like I say about the good players switching gears.....it helps to know that this guy is a fish and he'll most likely do it again<-this is the main point.....understand?

ok..if example fine, but this just pounds in the label...FISH

im just askin if he knows how to play that hand like he did, and the guy with TPTK cant get away from his hand..why is this label put on.. i can differentiate between players and gears and all that stuff. just askin for an explanation

#12 13th July 2008, 2:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daxter70

ok..if example fine, but this just pounds in the label...FISH

im just askin if he knows how to play that hand like he did, and the guy with TPTK cant get away from his hand..why is this label put on.. i can differentiate between players and gears and all that stuff. just askin for an explanation

Ok, I see part of the issue (I think). The real point of the post is that part of note taking is labeling your opponents (just like PokerTracker does) based on your play. Can you label someone a "fish" after looking at one hand? No, obv not. Should you include labels in your notes (e.g. JD is a donk)? Absolutely. It's also important that you know in your mind what your labels mean to you. What I call a fish you might call something else. My notes won't help you a lot without context just like yours wouldn't help me without context.

So if it helps, let me redo a part of the OP for the purposes of taking notes:

Player 1
Player 2
Player 3
Hero
Player 5
Player 6
Player 7
Villain
Player 9

Dealt to Hero: XX (OTB)
All players fold except Villain who limps in UTG.
Hero: Raises 3 X the BB
Villain: Calls
Flop: X X X
Villain: Checks
Hero: Bets 2/3 the pot.
Villain: Calls
Turn: X
Villain: Checks
Hero: Bets 2/3 the pot
Villain: Calls
River: X
Hero: bets 2/3 the pot
Villian: goes all in
Hero: Calls
Villian: Shows X X

Notes:
Limped with XX !
most likely limps with Y range of XX-XX
Slow played and Pushed on river
Fish

Notice the second line, "most likely". This is because of limited info in notes that needs to be revisited as you go along. The use of non-absolute language ("most likely") indicates a level of uncertainty that needs to be gauged and/or confirmed. This could be a one time deal that you just happened to witness or it could be indicative of his play style.

Anyway, like I said, IMO it's silly to argue about a pure fictional hand that's sole purpose was to illicit conversation about taking notes on players.

#13 13th July 2008, 3:01 AM

ok JD to sum it up...its an example...but he put he plays like a fish..thats where example/hypothetical meets the real world...ALL i was sayin.

i dont mean to disagree to agree..

but thats how i play my set

#14 13th July 2008, 3:26 AM

Thanks so much JD

Daxter I would personally never label a person who slowplays a set and beats me ,as a fish, obv you don't know me well enough if you don't think I know what I am doing here. Anyways I am not a confrintational person and thank god JD stepped in because I would have got too frustrated in explaining that it was just an "example" covering "all" the different ways of taking notes and labeling. Hopefully you don't lose sleep tonight over this but hopefully you'll get it.

#15 13th July 2008, 3:54 AM

The way I see it: The labeling fish has nothing to do with how the hand was played.

It's just an example of how to label players. For instance it could have said Rock or Shark just as easily.

IMO.

#16 13th July 2008, 8:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eNTy

The way I see it: The labeling fish has nothing to do with how the hand was played.

It's just an example of how to label players. For instance it could have said Rock or Shark just as easily.

IMO.

well label them shark or what not

i just asked why to labe him fish

for all the newbies...this is not a fish play

#17 13th July 2008, 9:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daxter70

well label them shark or what not

i just asked why to label him fish

for all the newbies...this is not a fish play

Dax.......

He labeled the guy "Fish" before this hand was played, not because of it! I tried to explain it earlier and several others have tried as well but we're not getting through to ya.

Try reading it as it was written... to teach people to continualy update notes as they play against the same person.

Original notes:Limped with small PP
most likely limps with PP range of 22-99
Slow played and Pushed on river
Fish

Now the hand KC posted was played and now the villian plays a set fairly well. KC takes new notes on his play regarding this hand. This example was the entire point of KC's post, to teach people how to update notes as they learn about how others play different hands! Obviously the villian had played foolishly on earlier hand(s) and KC noted "fish" on this player that after those hands were played.

What you won't try to understand is The "Fish" label was written long before this particular hand! KC now updates his notes acordingly because of the way the villian played this particular hand, he's not calling him a fish for the way he played this single hand. What part of this don't you get????

Personally I think it was a great post by KC. One people can learn from if they take the time to read it properly.

#18 13th July 2008, 9:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daxter70

well label them shark or what not

i just asked why to labe him fish

for all the newbies...this is not a fish play

ok so i dont know much about poker but even i got the point of the EXAMPLE..... get a grip Dax

... there was a lot more in that post than the word fish stop fixating

#19 14th July 2008, 12:39 AM

The one thing I really need to improve on while playing is my note taking. It seems I dont do enough of that and rely more on hand history for that tourney.

#20 14th July 2008, 4:52 AM

My 2 cents worth . .

1. KC's labelling is just teaching us how to label a player. That is the main point.

2. KC's labelling him as a "Fish" is a different subject - we can agree or disagree whether the labelling of "Fish" was correct or otherwise.

My own experience (I am not a Professional but a PhD Graduate from the Poker School of Bad Beats and Hard Knocks) says that the proper label, in my opinion, (ONLY MY OPINION) which many will disagree, yes, that guy I will label as a Fish and is not well experienced. My reason . .

If it is your intention to push all in at the River, why not do it earlier than take a very dangerous risk as there is a Straight Draw possibility there. There are many players who will Raise 3x BB with 8 9 suited or what happens if the other guy holds 9 J suited and you are thus giving him a chance to make a hand ? I will personally after the Flop push all in as I do not like the looks of the 7 10, but I will hope that the other guy has an Ace pair and my pushing all in makes him think that I am going for a double ender straight or whatever; but quite sure, I will not just call the bet. Even If I do not go all in, I will definately Raise at least 1.5 Pot Size.

I have lost enough hands with Pocket Aces where the Flop came Ace, 4, 9 and I slowplayed and just called the other guy's bet of half the Pot.

#21 14th July 2008, 5:36 AM

I have a lot of shorthand I use. Obviously, I list what hands they raise with (and how much) and what they limp with. Here are just a few that may help:

The classic minRw AA. (or KK,AKs, etc) (I love these guys. So few of them ever min raise with 87s.) I'll call them with almost any 2.

Calls, especially when coupled with OBWH (only bets when hits). For me, this means TP or better as opposed to....BWH (bets when hits). BWH means will bet a draw or middle pair or worse. He has something he likes enough to bet...doesn't just bet air.

Bets out...refers to the guy who calls out of position and always bets the flop. He's betting I missed.

NO BLUFF...pretty self-explanatory. When this guy bets hard he's got the goods.

WLF...will limp fold. Raise him from position.

WRF...will raise fold. Good to know when you get a little desperate in a tournament.

cRw...calls raise with xx. Make notes on whether he called in position. Calling a raise with 87s on the button is not necessarily a bad thing. This guy may be a player,shark, whatever. Calling an UTG raise from the SB with KT, imo, denotes someone who plays his cards, especially when coupled with "calls."

PHC...plays his cards. The finest opponent extant. He hits, he bets. He misses, he check/folds. Also kin to the.....

Bookplayer...a raise UTG must be respected (he thinks) so he folds all but the top hands...then he PHC.

agg wTP...pretty self-explanatory.

WNFTP...will not fold top pair (or an overpair)

These are the most common for me. Hope they help.

Brann

#22 14th July 2008, 5:52 AM

awesome add to the thread Brann!!

#23 14th July 2008, 6:10 AM

Thanks KC.

I'm with you in that I think notes should, quickly, tell me how someone plays. I actually find it as reliable as Pokertracker IF I keep good notes.
Besides, the tracking systems give me numbers but don't tell me how someone got to those numbers.

Brann

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