The instant reraise as a tell

When you lead out with a raise in heads up and the other guy instant min. reraises, what read do you get from it?

To me, it suggests he didn't think it through and is just making a play. If he had a K or J, he'd probably reraise to a higher amount and think it through first.

I just had a hand like that and decided the guy had nothing and luckily this time my read turned out to be right.

6 handed ring game, micro stakes. UTG limps in, 3 folds. I am in SB with 44 and decided to raise it up 3.5BB and hope to take the blinds. BB folds, UTG calls.

Flop comes Kd Jd 5s. I lead out with a half the pot raise to test him and he insta-min reraises me. He had shown himself to be a loose player, and my gut told me he didn't have it the way he insta raised it. So I decided to min reraise him back, and he called, affirming my suspicion. The turn comes Kh. I only had about half the pot left at this point, so I decided to shove, hoping he might fold if he had a J. He thinks for a few secs and calls it, and flips over 9d 2d. River doesn't help him and I won.

For loose players this technique seems to popular. I am actually surprised how many people I see fold to players like this. Kudos to you for spotting this weakness in your loose opponent.

lol im not trying to be negative but this play is going to cost you alot of $$ in the long run. Raising 44 OOP is putting urself in an unneeded tough spot against a villain that will never fold his limp (your read is loose). On the flop alot of the time your drawing real thin and in this particular hand your equity is probably close to 40% against his limping range. Ive seen the minraise mean anything from bottom pair to the nuts at the micros, so even against his bluffs your probably only a small favorite or even an underdog. As played fold to his min-raise. Limping or folding this hand from the sb is probably the best play.

I'm no good so that this for what its worth, but I just don't know about people, other than superdonks, using an instareraise on an original aggressor in a total bluff situation. If I'm in position HU with you and the flop brings me two pair, trips or better and you were aggressive preflop, then I'm thinking about what I'm gonna do as soon as the cards hit the felt. I'm gonna instareraise you and hope you do just what you did. When your opponent shows KJ or A5s in that above situation, you might reconsider the play. I just don't see why anyone would try to instareraise on a total bluff though...

Sorry Blueskies, completely agree w/Matt & Talbert. Insta-reraise scares the hell outta me, and I am thinking just like Talbert said, he hit and knew he would reraise in advance. I was stunned he had nothing and called the river. He was an absolute idiot, but your play here was horrible. Your read was not strong enough to warrant a call with 44, much less a shove with 3 overcards, 2 being paint.

sometimes, i think the instant reraise is a cheap ploy to try to bluff in limit games.. in other games especially no limit games i believe it doesnt work as good and is easy to deal with

I've read alot of stuff in regards to online tells... 'insta-min-reraise' is often a bluff by a spewy lag player. Nice one!

The instant min-raise doesn't necessarily mean anything at micros. I've seen it range from bottom pair to the nuts... but even if he is bluffing in this hand your still not far ahead of his range. Just fold this hand to re-raise its going to cost you $$$

Your play was horrible, no other way to describe it.
Fold preflop with your < 40BB stack. Shorty's burn in hell btw.

i've insta min raised as an accadent before, when trying to fold and making a missclick, then it put me on tilt and made me play a hand that i had no business being in, are u sure u werent playing against me? hehe

Its definetly a donkey move to automatically minimum raise as soon as the other guy bets. It shows lack of experience, focus and a loose player. And btw why are you showing with two fours with all overcards on the board?

Just to take advantage of a teachable moment:

Exact same hand, except instead of the small blind, hero is on the button. Now, leading out with pocket 4s to steal the blinds is a pretty standard play, right? And a min reraise (as opposed to a stop-and-go post-flop), whether instant or not, would be a pretty weak/inexperienced move. So the objections noted above are really all about playing out of position?

Straighten me out here if I've got this wrong or if I oversimplified. I struggle with playing pockets and I'm trying to develop some internal guidelines.

bd

I would agree that all things being equal, the way I played the hand was bad. That's not how I generally play. This was the only time since I moved to PS a month ago that I shoved in all in in a situation like this. But in this particular instance, I felt that the odds were, I was ahead. Sometimes you gotta play it situation by situation and player by player.

it all depends here. It can be a tell to me for either a bluff or a big hand. If you opponent is sitting on a big draw with alot of outs after seeing the flop they may insta call to catch the draw or to act like they have a monster. Or they could have a monster on the flop and insta call to disguise it. or they could be bluffing the whole time to me it all depends on the course of the game and how they have been playing you heads up the previous hands.

The way a player ckecks/calls could be the number of different games he is playing at the time. He may be making a quick call to get to another table, or take time becuase he was at another table. It is hard (for Me) to see tells online. Mostly I just play the cards. Maybe I will get good enough to see tells in the furture.
Mandy

So I was thinking about this the other day when I was playing. I guess I misunderstood or misspoke, but the reraise for the minimum amount is a bad play. If I am going to do an instand reraise it would be for the pot amount or there abouts. I do agree with Amanda though, sometimes people are playing multiple tables or multitasking or maybe they are trying to make you think something. I think that makes reading too much into online tells difficult...

I agree that one must remember its only micro-stakes. People rarely ACT donkish at these levels.
This raise could mean anything at all, I would even think in this situation that the guy lacked concentration for a second, or as was pointed out earlier he could have been multi-tabling.

Not true last night $1-$3NL I was BB with AK suited raised to $12, got min raised from a limper to $24. I called hit an ace on the flop bet out $18, he called I checked the turn which brought a potential broad way straight. River missed me. He bet $35, I flat called. He had limped in with AA and that was a horrible time to have AK and think I was ahead.

Well Instant re raise is nasty either way i would think about it....

1. There Bluffing.
2. There have a better hand then you.
3. There have a weaker hand there testing you.

Either way it's if it's a minimum or a lot bigger I would still run though the options!!

Plus I min raised once with quads in Omaha Hi. And was told it was too obvious what I had.... So I would not take Min raise as a Donkey move... Because there could be doing it for value or hoping for an allin!

Just be very careful and think about!!

This read is correct many times.
But it always depends on your opponent!
If he is a noobie and loose it wil be right much more ofter than playing against an experienced player....

You got lucky with a very bad hand/read keep it up and you'll be posting about how you hate poker online.

This is not always true. You'll see tight/aggressive players do this on good hands - probably for information, but not as a bluff.

That's crazy 3 overs to a pair of fours you must be new dude, good luck next time!

Yes this hand Points out exactly why the instant min-raise is a complete donkey move. He probably played that hand perfectly to extract the minimum value from you. If the villain does a standard raise, a large portion of the time you are going to 3-bet your AK suited. Thus, putting him in position to either 4-bet or call (which is fine for some players and maybe even preferable with 50-100bb stacks). In said hypothetical situation, you have already committed enough money preflop and now with top pair good kicker, he should have stacked you easily. You should be happy he let you get off so lightly

I couldn't disagree with you more. I'm almost never upset when someone instant min-raises me. If I had made a continuation bet on a flop and get min-raised, I now have the odds to draw out on you with a bad hand and can now play perfectly on the next street. If you make a large bet and my hand hasn't improved I can fold more profitably and cheaply than I normally would, while another portion of the time I would be able to draw out on a player much more cheaply than if I had actually had to call a decent sized raise (which came with fold equity because of anticipation of large bets on further streets). There is a reason why you don't see pros at 500-1kNL insta reminraising each other all the time. When your value betting your allowing an opponent draw cheap, while also not getting the $$ you want in the pot while your ahead.. and also when your bluffing/semi bluffing you have less fold equity then normally would.

I woulda popped you with A5. Gotta put you on a hand that missed if you're betting. The raise says I hit, get outta my pot.

Hard to say at a micro though. I don't play those because I don't have the patience for'em. And I can't really see a come-up of $.35 as a come up, anyway. Admittedly it's my own short-sightedness, and I'm sure some bankroll management would do me some good. =P

I think too many people in here are concentrating on the actual hands/cards. In many situations, we are playing the player, not the cards.

I took the op's meaning to be about reads on a LOOSE player. Many in here have mentioned tight players or players that mix up their game. OP didn't ask for advice on those players, but on the specifics of that situation, which was against a loose player who had been doing this the whole time.

I must agree, after a while in every game you can the players character and that's how you try to win, by using what you know about specific players and not by what you might guess regarding the other players...

I agree, play the player. With that said, I think I would have pushed the 44 after his min reraise preflop and taken it there. LAG's want to see a flop.

I agree, a loose player (fish, donk, ATM etc.) often insta raises thinking they are bluffing (acting strong). I see it a ton mostly in limit, stud and HE. Usually they have a draw or second best and want you to go away. LOL!! I've seen people try this and lose and then try again ten minutes later!! Funny thing is, in limit with pot odds, it's almost impossible for me to fold on 6th or 7th to one of these moves when I have a good hand -- they don't get it, I have to call no matter how fast they raise... Instaraise works better in NL and carries implied threats, but still..

No way I woulda been in this hand with 4s BTW.

its good thinking its always confused me but reverse psychology can always happen :P

I use the insta min raise very rarely. And unfortunately people I do it with the NUTS OF A GIANT SQUIRREL (I think thats how you spell squirrel).

And my thinking behind it is: he has just invested chips into the pot so if I make it quick I can get him to commit just a little more. Its like a yes set in sales. someone says yes and they are more likely to say yes again. Someone commits chips and they are more likely IMO to commit chips if I'm quick about it.

Try it 10 times and see if it is something you could use.