I will ask again.. why do people call a pre-flop raise when they won't make one ?

This constantly baffles the crap out of me. If the hand isn't good enough to raise pre flop why call a raise with it pre-flop??

If you know you are going to call a pre-flop raise then why haven't you made one yourself?

I always ask that to those who call my pre-flop raises when they don't make one. If the hand is good enough to call a pre flop raise, then why isn't it good enough to raise with it pre-flop?

I even had someone call my 6X BB with K,10 off suit against my JJ's. Yes I was in mid position and he was on the button. Everyone has folded to me and everyone after me folded up to him. Now why was the pre-flop raised called when I know for a fact he wouldn't raise with that hand.

Table: 5570361 (Real Money) Seat #7 is the dealer
Seat 1 - KAHUNE57 ($2335 in chips)
Seat 2 - POKERKELLY ($1645 in chips)
Seat 3 - VIOLET3 ($1745 in chips)
Seat 5 - BIGA6573 ($680 in chips)
Seat 6 - BRASSMONSTER ($1255 in chips)
Seat 7 - TWIZZYBOP ($3210 in chips)
Seat 8 - MICROSRC ($1205 in chips)
Seat 9 - DONDUNK ($1425 in chips)
MICROSRC - Posts small blind $25
DONDUNK - Posts big blind $50
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to TWIZZYBOP [Ad Ac]
KAHUNE57 - Folds
POKERKELLY - Calls $50
VIOLET3 - Calls $50
BIGA6573 - Folds
BRASSMONSTER - Folds
TWIZZYBOP - All-In(Raise) $3210 to $3210
MICROSRC - Folds
DONDUNK - Folds
POKERKELLY - Folds
VIOLET3 - All-In $1695
TWIZZYBOP - returned ($1465) : not called
*** FLOP *** [4c 3s 2c]
*** TURN *** [4c 3s 2c] 8♣
*** RIVER *** [4c 3s 2c 8c] J♠
*** SHOW DOWN ***
VIOLET3 - Shows [Jh Jc] (Three of a kind, jacks)
TWIZZYBOP - Shows [Ad Ac] (One pair, aces)
VIOLET3 Collects $3615 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($3615)
Board [4c 3s 2c 8c Js]
Seat 1: KAHUNE57 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 2: POKERKELLY Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: VIOLET3 won Total ($3615) All-In HI$3615) with Three of a kind, jacks [Jh Jc - B:Js,P:Jh,P:Jc,B:8c,B:4c]
Seat 5: BIGA6573 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 6: BRASSMONSTER Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 7: TWIZZYBOP (dealer) HI:lost with One pair, aces [Ad Ac - P:Ad,P:Ac,B:Js,B:8c,B:4c]
Seat 8: MICROSRC (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 9: DONDUNK (big blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS

Table: 5562906 (Real Money) Seat #6 is the dealer
Seat 1 - CLASSICCHV ($3220 in chips)
Seat 2 - BRUCE_BRUCE ($1325 in chips)
Seat 3 - WGLONION ($3005 in chips)
Seat 4 - GDEL ($1355 in chips)
Seat 6 - XXXHOG ($980 in chips)
Seat 7 - WELLSII ($1765 in chips)
Seat 9 - TWIZZYBOP ($1850 in chips)
WELLSII - Posts small blind $50
TWIZZYBOP - Posts big blind $100
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to TWIZZYBOP [Qc Ac]
CLASSICCHV - Folds
BRUCE_BRUCE - Folds
WGLONION - Calls $100
GDEL - Folds
XXXHOG - Folds
WELLSII - Folds
TWIZZYBOP - Raises $500 to $600
WGLONION - Calls $500
*** FLOP *** [Ad Qs 5c]
TWIZZYBOP - Bets $600
WGLONION - Calls $600
*** TURN *** [Ad Qs 5c] 9♥
TWIZZYBOP - All-In $650
WGLONION - Calls $650
*** RIVER *** [Ad Qs 5c 9h] 7♠
*** SHOW DOWN ***
WGLONION - Shows [5d 5h] (Three of a kind, fives)
TWIZZYBOP - Shows [Qc Ac] (Two Pairs, aces and queens)
WGLONION Collects $3750 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($3750)
Board [Ad Qs 5c 9h 7s]
Seat 1: CLASSICCHV Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 2: BRUCE_BRUCE Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: WGLONION won Total ($3750) HI$3750) with Three of a kind, fives [5d 5h - P:5h,P:5d,B:5c,B:Ad,B:Qs]
Seat 4: GDEL Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 6: XXXHOG (dealer) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 7: WELLSII (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 9: TWIZZYBOP (big blind) HI:lost with Two Pairs, aces and queens [Qc Ac - B:Ad,P:Ac,B:Qs,P:Qc,B:9h]

I think in early position, a call is like checking in the dark after the flop. It keeps you in the hand but will allow you to get out cheaply if someone else raises.

JJ person was alittle passive but maybe he planned on doing a check/raise and you did it for him. I really don't see him letting go of that hand, especially when you put him on that hard decision.

The person with 55 is alitttle different. Maybe he called because pockets pairs can hold better heads up and when you raised and he knew it was going to be just the two of you, he calls. He hit his 5 on the flop, no way you are getting rid of him after that.

Either way, you just got sucked out. What type of game is this, MTT or a S&G?

On examing your play, you are way overbetting with your preflop bets. What happened to a standard raise of 3xBB? You bombed all-in with your AA when you are the chip leader. You raised 6xBB with your AQ. I know the outcomes of the hands here probably would have been the same but you may have been able to hit the brakes on one of these hands if you slowed down alittle.

I think theese results either comes from low level sng's or mtt's, so it's against weak players.

In my opinion it would be stupid not to raise 6xBB if you are pretty sure you will get atleast one caller, when you are holding AA, so I don't see anything wrong with that raise. Maybe the 6xBB with AQ was a bit of an overkill, cause if you don't hit anything you can only win the pot with a big bet, and that's normally not what you want to do against weak players. So in that situation I would prefer a smaller raise, that is easier to get away from.

Play Noble Poker ring games sometime. The most ridiculously passive play I've ever seen. I've seen people check all the way to the river numerous times with trips on the flop.

Sit-n-go's

The JJ's were passive.. I always ask the person the same question, why call a raise pre-flop if you didn't raise pre-flop?
Answer, they never raise a high pocket pair. Nice to note for later I thought to myself.. Then you say why all-in, basically for reasons of the call. Most of the time a standard 4-5X raise early in the game you will get a rag ass caller.
However since the person called all-in, I am pretty sure they would have called contination bets all the way to the river.

The 55's didn't answer me and that was 5X the BB being in the position of the SB establishes I have a hand. Acting 1st one definatly needs a hand to make such a raise. Passive as well with the 5's, Never occured to him to re-raise to see if he did have the best hand now did it? Pocket AA's or QQ's would have destroyed him(brings the same point you need a hand to act 1st with) yet it never crossed his mind what so ever that indeed I may have AA's or QQ's coming out of a position that has to act 1st.

Now if both hands are so passive with it, calling a pre flop raise is being aggresive which brings me back to if you know you are going to call a pre flop raise why not pre flop raise to begin with?

Scared to make a pre-flop raise but yet they weren't scared to call a pre-flop raise they are scared to make.

cause if you don't hit anything you can only win the pot with a big bet,
That is why there is a 5X the BB with it.. so it pays you when it does hit for all the times it does miss, a miss you bail out.

The secret here is in implied odds.
Before you place a bet, look at the size of your stack and theirs.

You have pocket 5's. I have AA. I raise and you put me on AA-QQ maybe AK ya know whatever.
When the flop is XX5, you know the AA is going to stack off.
You will improve to a set 1 in 8 times, (on the flop) so if someone bets 500 but only has 2200 in front, you cant call. If the same person has 5000 in front, your getting 10-1 implied odds.
So the next thing you ask is "will this guy stack off if I hit my set?"
If yes, then call.
If no then fold.
__

You are paying off implied odds hard here.
bet so the dont have odds against you by:
1.) Be less willing to stack off when you "miss"
2.) Control the size of the pot pre flop as some eluded to.
3.) Bet more than 8-1 against his and your stack so if he calls and you do stack off, it is still a mistake on there part.

I prefer controling the size of the pot myself.

Cool post,

Bill

Sometimes it has nothing to do with being passive or not being willing to raise. Its called slow play. You check or don't raise to make it look like your not holding a good hand, in hopes that you'll draw out a weaker hand into betting the pot and taking them for all they've got. Thats my two cents. I use this technique, quite effective if you know how to play it.

That's exactly what I was going to say! I like to call sometimes and let the other players assume I have a half-decent but not great hand and no clue as to how to play poker.

There is a method to the madness.

By the way, I forgot to say that this method works very well in limit rings, where it is very difficult to buy the pot pre-flop.

Well. Do not forget people play differently. I was just in a tournament where I was dealt AQ 2 spots before the button. An earlier person went all in. I went for it and had them dominated. They had 10 4. I guess they were trying to bully or are just learned how to play poker from WPT on Travel. Either way I had this hand dominated Preflop

FLOP: 7 3 9
Turn: 6
River: 8

I know how to play real cards. Yeah, I guess calling AQ after an all in was a bad idea. But its a nice hand and the notes I had on the player says they play anything hard. So I was figuring a low pocket pair. Still it sucks to see people play like this and win. It just makes them play like this all the time.

You check or don't raise to make it look like your not holding a good hand, in hopes that you'll draw out a weaker hand into betting the pot and taking them for all they've got. Thats my two cents. I use this technique, quite effective if you know how to play it.

This can also backfire quite a bit. You are now giving the opponent(s) a chance to get a free card. So your hand is no longer the best hand and your opponent(s) become the best hand on the free card they got to see. All because you were trying to get fancy.

quoteI will ask again.. why do people call a pre-flop raise when they won't make one ? )

These people are called "calling stations" and they are your easiest pick. If they never put pressure on you and you study these players a bit then this is the easiest money you can make. And for the question of why call a preflop raise if you wouldnt put one out there, you can disguise your hand a bit more with smaller connecting cards and smaller pairs when you can accuratley put your opponent on big cards. I also find that a stone cold call can put your opponent uneasy about you being in position.

I don't believe so. If you take into account that someone else has already raised then nobody is getting a free card.

I don't believe so. If you take into account that someone else has already raised then nobody is getting a free card.

Huh?? The initial point was to check-raise. Now the check raise does backfire based that you are giving your opponent(s) the option of checking as well which then gives your opponent(s) a free chance to look at the next card which could then beat your hand because you tried to get fancy by doing a check raise. Now your opponent(s) have better the better hand because they got a free look at the next card. Yet that may not have happened had you bet to begin with.

No, the initial point was why players will call a pre-flop raise and not make one themselves, so somebody else must have raised in order for you to call a raise.

Okay... crossed wires... the poster who I was agreeing with was referring to slow playing by either calling a raise or just checking. And I agree with you on the check-raise giving the other players a free card, but we're straying off topic now.

The most likely answer to your question is that most players do not fully grasp the value of different hands in different situations. A loose passive player (like the one you describe above), may simply think that KT is a good enough hand and be willing to play it regardless of position or pre-flop cost. Loose passives will typically play almost anything, but will raise almost nothing.

Nobody has used the phrase Limping in response to the initial post.
Let me ask you one question twizzybop.
If, like both of your opponents, you found yourself with JJ or 55 in early position, what would you do?

Would you fold those hands for the cost of the BB, 100 in chips in both cases.

Would you push hard in early position in both cases?

This is not a case of....why do you call a big raise but dont make that raise yourself, its about position, its also about disguise as some people have already pointed out.

The player wglonion who had pocket 5s played the hand in a solid fashion.

Who would know he had trips on the flop, certainly not you.
So he achieved what he set out to do.

If he had those pocket 5s in the first hand you exampled, and was faced with a 3k plus all in bet, im sure those 5s would be in the bin quick time.

But he was faced with a 500 bet and saw value in calling.

As for the JJ caller, VIOLET3 well, also early position JJ is not a monster by any means and for me is a coin flip whether i push with it or not when its my turn to act pre-flop.
A raise to see where i am at would be a good move, and of course a fold when you would of gone all-in.

But they chose to Limp in also like the 55 did, but the difference was that the 55 was 555 by the time you pushed in and there hand was made.

Although you were unlucky to lose to JJ with AA, you were not unlucky to lose to 555 with AAQQ

JJ made a decision when you pushed all in and they based it on you having AK AQ or lower pocket pair to them.

JJ was wrong but lucked out, that one was tough on you but i didnt see anything wrong ( 50% of the time ) with them just Limping in pre-flop.

Dont fall into the trap of raise when its your turn to act just to find when you slam in a raise one or more of those who did not raise wont call.

You have to mix your play up otherwise those who take the time to watch, will find you to predictable.

I am by no means telling you your business, i am just passing on what i have found in the past and what works for me.

zinzan1000 be lucky

Nice post zinzan

Hopefully you're referring to strictly post flop play. His pre-flop call was statistically terrible. In a situation like that (facing a pre-flop raise from a tight player), you could just as easily be up against JJ-AA, in addition to a big ace. Either way, in most cases you need to flop a set to continue.

He put 1/5 of his stack into the pot pre-flop. Given he'll only flop a set 1 time in 7 or 8, he'll go broke before he gets a chance to double up.

Don't get me wrong, I love flopping a set against pocket aces as much as the next guy, but would never use 1/5 of my stack to try and do so...

This is true IF you assume the pocket 5's will be folded every time a set is not made. Against a real rock, If I can't limp in with my PP I'm not going to play them. If your up against a player with a wider selection of starting hands than a high pair, then a continuation bet on most flops should take the pot. This isn't a bluff either. Since either player will only pair the board 1/3 of the time, It's a good bet that even dueces will be best. This is no more risky then someone betting out with AK against a flop that was unlikely to have hit your opponent.

Well, that was pretty much my point. Limping w/ a low pair? Fine. Smooth calling a loose, middle postioned, open-raiser? Fine. Limp-calling for 1/5 of your stack, out of position? I still think it's ludicrous no matter who your opponent is.

True enough, and if I'm up against one loose limping opponent in a smaller pot, this is absolutely my course of action, as my fives will most likely be best post flop. But in the example above, a standard continuation bet of 1/2 the pot puts almost 1/2 your chips in (1200 out of 3000). You've now built a massive pot with only a pair of fives.

As the old adage goes, big hand, big pot ... little hand, little pot. Not exactly sure I would consider a pair of fives a monster...

WGLONION, had only put in 600 chips, 1/5 of his stack as opposed to TWizzy 600 chips 1/3 of his stack, pre flop.
He/she had not released 1200 chips on a pair of fives as you just stated.
He/she called a standard 4 times the BB raise with a pocket pair and close to 2 times his/her opponents stack......All pre-flop.

WGLONION flopped trip 5s, the rest of the hand/pot is not relevant/reletive to anything else you have indicated.

I wonder if like TWIZZYBOP, you have trouble getting your head around this situation?

4dogs is perfectly right in his view on this hand, its all pretty basic stuff.
But if what has been written in anyway helps you, me , or anybody else in improving our game, great

zinzzan1000 get lucky

WGLONION, had only put in 600 chips, 1/5 of his stack as opposed to TWizzy 600 chips 1/3 of his stack, pre flop.
He/she had not released 1200 chips on a pair of fives as you just stated.
He/she called a standard 4 times the BB raise with a pocket pair and close to 2 times his/her opponents stack......All pre-flop.

Now if wglonion was willing to put 1/5 of his chips in pre-flop then why didn't he do it in the 1st place. Again why call a pre-flop raise when you won't make one?

WGLONION flopped trip 5s, the rest of the hand/pot is not relevant/reletive to anything else you have indicated.
Actually it is..1/5 of a stack on a 1:8 chance to hit a set. Wrong odds to be calling 1/5 of your stack in hopes of hitting a set. So indeed the hand/pot is actually relevant to everything I have indicated.

I wonder if like TWIZZYBOP, you have trouble getting your head around this situation?

About the same I wonder.. Nah I will be nice... The whole call with pocket 5's vs any higher pair never mind the A,Q..Even against 66's the 55's only have an 18.39% to win, more the power to you. Yet lets go with a higher pair shall we? Not much better % against higher pockets then the 66's.

Are you really willing to risk being middle stacked that early on in the tournament hoping to hit a set, with at best a 19% to win?

Lets evaluate this now shall we..a 2.5:1 to call on and being nice here 5:1 chance to win against pockets that is. Yet not to mention with a and being nice again a 12% to hit the set. That sure is a lot of hoping and wishing on such a pretty big gamble because they didn't make a pre flop raise, but yet called one.

Yes. The guy w/ 55 called 1/5 of his stack pre-flop. We don't disagree here.

I don't think you understood what I was saying. I didn't say that someone had already put in 1200 chips.

4dogs said that with a low pair, you don't always need to flop a set to continue, and that sometimes a continuation bet takes the pot down. I was merely stating that while this is a viable option in some cases, I'm not sure it's an option when you've already committed 1/5 of your stack pre-flop. A continuation bet by of 1/2 the pot commits you for almost 1/2 your stack... which is where the 1200 figure comes from.

I realize he flopped trips... my post was in reply to 4dogs' hypothetical situation of NOT flopping trips.

I'm not sure what point you think I'm not understanding. The guy called 1/5 of his stack pre-flop with 55. I've yet to see a reply as to why this was actually a good idea.

Your implied odds are worse than 5:1, making this a play with a negative long term EV. This was also pointed about by Bill_Hollorian earlier in the thread. I'm agreeing with his post.

I'm not saying you always lay down low pairs to a raise .. just that you need to make sure you're getting the implied odds to make the call.

Twizzy,

If I am in late postion or even UTG I may limp in with something just to see who's left in the hand. Also it may way get some information from the other players what they might have. This is only the reason why I may call a preflop raise when I have already limped in the hand.

This is the number one reason lousy players get those suck ass str8s and flushs. You gave them the chance.

The information was there.. The normal which most everyone does is a 3-5XBB raise with a top 10 pre-flop hand. That information became available to the pocket 55's the second I made the pre-flop bet.

Not with standing but would advocating the call with pocket 5's change if I had Pocket QQ's or even AA's?

It concerns me when somebody opens a thread by asking a question, then does not seem to want any other answer or advice to be different from there own take on that situation.

Also with multiple posts made in respose to the thread, confusion rears its ugly head because some members dont take the time to QUOTE which post they are responding to.

It becomes very messy, and does not bode well for those that enjoy the forum and look forward to quality posts.

Getting back to the original post made by TWIZZYBOP with regards to why some players wont make a pre-flop raise but will call one.

There has been several posts from members who have taken the time to respond to your thread, each with there own take on the question posed.

I am sorry to note that you find it difficult to accept advice given by those that took the time to reply.

Although i respect your feelings and thoughts as an individual, i would have to say that if you are not prepared to look, listen, and learn from other members then i cant see a way forward for you.

Everybody has there own unique take on what is or isnt the right play in any given situation at a poker table, but in such forums as this one, the main reason for its being is that we can all learn from each other and try to improve our game.

Listening to advice given by others allows us try out new things when we find ourselves scratching our heads with a dilema such as the one you gave.

Surely by doing this we can improve our game and not fall into the trap of having tunnel vision every time we are confronted with the same situation.

I found that you felt as though every post made which differed from yours in some way was a personal attack on your game play and mind set.

This can not be further from the truth, and my ADVICE to you ( for the final time i might add regarding this thread ) is, look back at all the previous posts with an open mind, read them carefully, try to see if anything written is good advice regardless of whether it differs from your take or not.

As you can see, i have taken the time to write this post and if i were reading it and not writing it, i would be grateful to the poster.

zinzan1000 be lucky

Although i respect your feelings and thoughts as an individual, i would have to say that if you are not prepared to look, listen, and learn from other members then i cant see a way forward for you.

Isn't nothing to learn and to put this in more perspective now.
Pocket 55's can't, wouldn't, raise pre-flop. Yet he called something he can't, wouldn't do. Seems ironic to call on something you can't and wouldn't do yourself.

Then after calling with pocket 55's and hoping that he hit a 12% chance to hit trips. The hands after he now has to deal with the blinds, considering he is going to be in both of them. Not only has he hoped that he does hit trips on a 600 chip bet then he has at least without the blinds going up of using 750 in chips. If the blinds are going up that is now 900 chips taking away almost 1/3 of his stack just on 3 bets alone while risking 2/3 of those chips on a 19% chance of winning.

Now lets say of course the 55's don't hit trips. He now has to worry about anybody trying to steal his blinds.

The coming up of the blinds also has to be put into consideration especially if they do go up to 100/200. Now if the guy with 920 chips pushes while he is in the blind(s) he will now have to at least bet half his stack to protect his blind. Instead of betting 1/3 of his stack against the 920 in chips he would have to bet 1/2.

Not only did I have to think about my stack size in relative to the table, he also should have done the same.