I need help. Am I playing bad or is just "poker"

#1 2nd April 2010, 8:20 PM

I will describe two hands that I played yesterday in a 1-2 NL cash game:
On both hands I was SB. The suites are not important since there was never a flush draw.
First hand:
AA, four limpers I bet $10.
Three fold and the button (a middle aged women that did not seem neither lose nor aggressive) calls.
Flop: 5 J 8 I bet $10 and get called.
Turn: 7 bet $20 get called
River: 9 check, button bets $50 I fold.

Hand two:
I have A2o
two limpers and I limp as well.

Flop: A K 8
Bet $8 get a a caller (new player no info on him)

Turn: A check/check

River: 9 I bet $20, the other player goes all in. I called. He had 99 for a full house.

In retrospect, I should not have checked on the Turn but I doubt that would have change the outcome.

What do you guys think?

#2 2nd April 2010, 9:42 PM

You are not aggressive enough.

First hand. You need to bet more!!! you only bet about 1/3 of the pot on the flop with a draw on it... you need to make your opponents pay to see cards, not give them great odds at it. The bet on the turn wasn't much better. When she bet on the river she bet over half pot and you folded(see how that works).

Second hand. You got it right, you should have bet out on the turn. You did do the right thing here by making a pot sized raise, but then turned limp on the turn. I think your opponent should have folded had you made another 3/4 or pot sized bet there on the turn. Again, on the river you made a good sized bet in relation to the pot, but it was too late.

#3 2nd April 2010, 10:05 PM

Thank you for your remarks. Was I right to fold the first hand and was I right to call the second?

#4 2nd April 2010, 10:11 PM

I agree with absoluthamm on the first hand.

I'm dumping the second hand preflop. A2o is pretty useless. You're either going to win a small pot or lose a bigger one when you're outkicked. It's not a hand that plays well in a multi-way pot.

#5 2nd April 2010, 10:17 PM

I think I would have done the opposite. I would have called the first one because you are getting over 2:1 odds and you have top pair. I could see villain calling down with something like AJ/KJ/QJ thinking they have top pair good kicker. I really see them having a 10 for some reason, but they are representing it.

The 2nd hand, I would throw away because A2 is such a vulnerable hand. Any Ace with kicker higher than an 8 beats you, which would be understandable for a limping hand. You have top trips, but no kicker.
Edit: Just like BenLZ said

#6 2nd April 2010, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by absoluthamm

I think I would have done the opposite. I would have called the first one because you are getting over 2:1 odds and you have top pair. I could see villain calling down with something like AJ/KJ/QJ thinking they have top pair good kicker. I really see them having a 10 for some reason, but they are representing it.

No, I don't think slowplaying is right. As I've learned from this very forum.

First of all, you get just above 50% chance which you never want with AA. And those odds are for all-in situations anyway.

Secondly, people don't generally want to put their stacks in an unraised pot, or that much money anyway. They might just play that TP up to a limit, which you would make by raising and cbetting anyway.

Thirdly, AA is not a hand you throw away easily post flop, unless you're the Zen Master. When someone makes their 2 small limping pairs or set you're about dead, especially without some obvious flush/straight that might hold you back.

Fourthly, 4 players limped, one of them will most likely call. You can make more money with that call than you would in most situations post flop.

Fifthly, he was in first position. What is he going to do, bet and have everyone fold after the flop, or worse get raised, or try to check/raise and risk to have everyone check behind?

I do agree the bet sizes were too small, though.

#7 2nd April 2010, 11:34 PM

About the second hand, I agree that I should not have been in in the first place and I would have fold to a pre flop raise. But for $ I wanted to see the flop.
On the river, my reasoning was (and yes, I did put him on an A not on pocket 9) that if he had a kicker higher than 9 he would have raised preflop being on the button.
But then again, he should have raised the nines as well.

#8 3rd April 2010, 6:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComplexPlaya

No, I don't think slowplaying is right. As I've learned from this very forum.

First of all, you get just above 50% chance which you never want with AA. And those odds are for all-in situations anyway.

Secondly, people don't generally want to put their stacks in an unraised pot, or that much money anyway. They might just play that TP up to a limit, which you would make by raising and cbetting anyway.

Thirdly, AA is not a hand you throw away easily post flop, unless you're the Zen Master. When someone makes their 2 small limping pairs or set you're about dead, especially without some obvious flush/straight that might hold you back.

Side note: in my last post, I meant to say "I really don't see them having a 10 for some reason, but they are representing it." Must have been typing faster than I was thinking again...

Fourthly, 4 players limped, one of them will most likely call. You can make more money with that call than you would in most situations post flop.

Fifthly, he was in first position. What is he going to do, bet and have everyone fold after the flop, or worse get raised, or try to check/raise and risk to have everyone check behind?

I do agree the bet sizes were too small, though.

My comment was about the river play, not the entire hand as a whole. I don't agree with slowplaying AA either. Too much money left out of the pot and giving too many chances for fish to hit their bottom two or bullshit straights/flushes to beat you when you could have gotten rid of them preflop.

#9 3rd April 2010, 6:52 AM

Okay simple, first hand raise more - 2nd hand FOLD!

#10 3rd April 2010, 7:33 AM

Exactly!!! It's so simple! lol

#11 3rd April 2010, 9:42 AM

First hand you need to bet more when you have aces and there are draws out dont let them have great odds to call with a draw but a fold on the river was the right play. Second you how did the guy go all in for? In less it was a really really small all in you need to fold that hand because the only thing his re-rasing you with is a better hand yes you do have trip but you have to think a limper could just limp with Ax or a small pair and try and get you for all your money which looks what happen in this hand.

#12 3rd April 2010, 3:29 PM

The all in was for $60. I should have taken a minute to think what he could have called with. But as I said, I thought he had an A with a kicker under 9.

#13 3rd April 2010, 4:14 PM

first hand for sure I would have been betting much bigger to make them catch their card, 2nd hand I am not even sure if I would have played, but if I did and was raised all in i would have folded, even if he has a Ace you are out kicked, he easily could have made 2 pair or been floating a big hand.

#14 3rd April 2010, 7:17 PM

First hand was played as if you have quads and you are extracting value... AA is just a pair and it's often not worth risking the whole stack.. Bet more and aim to win the pot early without showdown

#15 3rd April 2010, 8:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grotto1

I will describe two hands that I played yesterday in a 1-2 NL cash game:
On both hands I was SB. The suites are not important since there was never a flush draw.
First hand:
AA, four limpers I bet $10.
Three fold and the button (a middle aged women that did not seem neither lose nor aggressive) calls.
Flop: 5 J 8 I bet $10 and get called.
Turn: 7 bet $20 get called
River: 9 check, button bets $50 I fold.

Hand two:
I have A2o
two limpers and I limp as well.

Flop: A K 8
Bet $8 get a a caller (new player no info on him)

Turn: A check/check

River: 9 I bet $20, the other player goes all in. I called. He had 99 for a full house.

In retrospect, I should not have checked on the Turn but I doubt that would have change the outcome.

What do you guys think?

First hand, generally speaking.. I would raise 4bb +1bb for each limper (w pos. > 3bb +1bb each limper).. BUT. you have AA & would preferably want to get action from one player anyways.... raise to $10 is ok imo.

As said already, bet larger on flop (3/4pot).
As played I would call on the river.

2nd hand, as played - if I'm 'checking' on the turn it's to induce a bluff from villain on the river so I'm not betting out on river here.. c/C instead (just my opinion).

tip - don't post the results of the hand in your post (until later if at all) as it'll sway/alter/skew/prejudice member's answers.

#16 4th April 2010, 6:12 PM

Seems like there is a lot of missing information in these hands. Like what position were you in, in both of these situations that is a factor.

Also how much does anyone have in there stack?

The first hand you said there were 4 limpers. So the pot was $10 when you bet $10, you probably would have been better to bet 16-20. People play too loose preflop and you'll probably get a call.
On the flop you bet $10 again which is only 1/3 the pot- something like $25-30 would probably have been more appropriate.
It also would have made it easier to play on the turn/river since you be comitted.

#17 4th April 2010, 6:15 PM

I did say in my initial post that in both situations I was on the SB.

I did play again yesterday and I took all the advice into consideration. I got AA four times and did not loose any. On the down side, I won only small pots with them.

#18 4th April 2010, 6:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grotto1

I did say in my initial post that in both situations I was on the SB.

I did play again yesterday and I took all the advice into consideration. I got AA four times and did not loose any. On the down side, I won only small pots with them.

Would you rather win small pots or lose huge ones?

#19 7th April 2010, 9:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grotto1

I did say in my initial post that in both situations I was on the SB.

I did play again yesterday and I took all the advice into consideration. I got AA four times and did not loose any. On the down side, I won only small pots with them.

That same thing pissed me off getting back to cash games, but you can't play them like you were in say a tight tournament where that might work. And I was trying that kind of slick play in vain.

The thing is, if it's a small unraised pot, nobody will give you any action 99% of the time anyway (well, they probably will at 2NL but then again they'll give you more action pre-flop at that level too ) so you won't win anything less than the blinds anyway.

When you raise pre, you get the blinds + raise, so a big plus already. Usually you'll also get a cbet, and some times you can get their stack in. But not if you don't raise them normally.

Do you use tracking software? If you don't, use one ASAP. If you do, look at the hands that won you the most $$$

Mine are QQ, AA, KK, 99, JJ, TT (in that order) with QQ and AA winning more than double 99 and below (I guess KK being third and QQ first is just variation).

Most of those winnings (by far) come from big pots pre-flop, not small ones

#20 7th April 2010, 3:24 PM

This was a live game so tracking software does not apply. I would say that high suited or unsuited connectors won me the most money.
As far as pocket pairs are concerned, I win probably 90% of the time with AA and KK. Maybe 65% with QQ and 50% with JJ.
All this just based on memory.

#21 7th April 2010, 3:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grotto1

This was a live game so tracking software does not apply. I would say that high suited or unsuited connectors won me the most money.
As far as pocket pairs are concerned, I win probably 90% of the time with AA and KK. Maybe 65% with QQ and 50% with JJ.
All this just based on memory.

Ah, sorry, thought it was online and at 2NL meaning .01/.02 blinds. But anyway, it's about how much you win with them, not how often and it must be a raised pot to win big

#22 10th April 2010, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grotto1

I will describe two hands that I played yesterday in a 1-2 NL cash game:
On both hands I was SB. The suites are not important since there was never a flush draw.
First hand:
AA, four limpers I bet $10.
Three fold and the button (a middle aged women that did not seem neither lose nor aggressive) calls.

Dude-you got some mad reading skills!You can tell the age of a woman online?? Or are you just going off the avatar?

#23 10th April 2010, 3:40 PM

Once again, this was a live game. So yes, I could tell her approximate age, but obviously not her hand.

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