I limp from SB

#1 18th August 2009, 10:01 PM

Saw this quote from Stu Ungar:

Quote:

XX calls a very high % from the SB with pots that have limpers and plays very fit or fold post flop.

It has been pointed out that this is incorrect play, but he will argue the toss for days on end.

I do this....a lot, with any marginal or even sub-marginal hand. If there are two limpers I will call with a huge range because I am getting 6:1 odds on my call. With 3 limpers or more I will call with any 2 cards including 2-7.

Can someone explain why this is incorrect?

#2 18th August 2009, 10:06 PM

Well - I am no genius but you are going to be the first to act every time. That is not a great position to be in with any 2 cards. I like what Tommay Angelo says to people who think they are getting a half price special in the sb.

"Why pay half price for something you don't want for free?"

#3 18th August 2009, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChurchSkiz

With 3 limpers or more I will call with any 2 cards including 2-7.

Odds of flopping two pair or better with 27o is about 1 out of 50. Any other hand is going to be very difficult to play. And when you flop 2 pair, you will be using two cards on the flop yourself, so it will be hard for your opponents to have much. And as dakota pointed out, you'll be acting first so it will be hard to build a big pot.

Sure, you're getting like 9:1 with 3 limpers, but that's nowhere near enough odds to make 72o a profitable hand limping from the small blind in a no-limit game.

#4 18th August 2009, 10:21 PM

+1 at what c9 says.

Raising 72o in this situation, on the other hand, is über sexy.

#5 18th August 2009, 10:40 PM

Here is how I look at it: If you were on the button getting 6:1, would you want to limp with 27?

If you say no to limping on the button, then you wouldn't want to limp from the sb either.

#6 18th August 2009, 10:44 PM

Well I learned something about my ignorance. For whatever reason I thought it was 8:1 to hit two pair. I will stop doing this now, thanks.

#7 18th August 2009, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by massimo

Here is how I look at it: If you were on the button getting 6:1, would you want to limp with 27?

obviously not, but raising would be sexy...

did i mention i love raising?

#8 18th August 2009, 10:57 PM

I think playing hand like 22-88 or 45s+ are ok to limp in the sb but what are you hoping for with 72o. If the comes Js 7s 2h are you going to like it that much in a 5 or 6 way pot. Most people will play cautiously in muli-way pots and you won't get them to put a lot of money in with one pair. I think you stand to lose a big pot or win a small one more often than not with trash hands. Yeah you are getting great odds to call but the reverse implied odds here makes for an easy fold imo.

#9 18th August 2009, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChurchSkiz

Well I learned something about my ignorance. For whatever reason I thought it was 8:1 to hit two pair. I will stop doing this now, thanks.

The odds of your PP flopping a set are about 8:1. Maybe you confused it with that?

From the SB I'll limp with stuff like small pairs hoping to hit a set. Otherwise, feh! It's too difficult to play hands post flop out-of-position. And even if your little hand makes two pair, that's easily counterfeited when the board pairs.

#10 18th August 2009, 11:38 PM

Well the following advice was given to XX and resulted in him accusing me of harassing him.

The basic jist is that you cannot enter pots solely hoping to flop big. You need a backup plan of stealing post flop if you miss (as you will miss most of the time)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu_Ungar

Well the way I would look at it is this..

By completing the SB with a weak range in MW pots, you are forcing yourself to play very fit or fold post flop.

Lets assume a final preflpp pot with 4 players (A middle position limper, the button, YOU THE SB and the BB completes).

The pot is 4bb

You are now OOP and low and behold you miss the flop because most of the time you will (just like any flop really!)

Now you look to steal.

Well a c-bet of 1/2 pot is 2bb (woow thats a hell of a raise!! 2bb isnt really the kind of powerhouse raise thats going to blow these fish of their hands. Fish limp preflop and low and behold they peel postflop too).

so lets asume these guys fold a lot.. they each fold 65% of the time (which for a guy who peels.. thats a relitively high fold %

The combined fold to c-bet of 3 loose fish limpers should be around.

0.65^3=0.274625

so the combined FTs post flop of all 3 players is 27%

Now we are putting 2bb into a 4bb pot as a steal so it has to be successfull 2/(2+4)=0.333333 % of the time.

It isnt!

it succeeds only 27% of the time.

So by competing the SB with a weak range you are leaving yourself OOP with a hand thats unlikely to be strong postflop AND you have little chance of stealing.

So you arent adding to your winrate by doing this, instead you are losing more. The few times you make a decent hand are whats pushing your WR up again.

However this can be better achived by tightening your range such that you are more likely to make the best hand post flop. Betting rather than calling to reduce the number of people in the hand and targeting opponents who are likely to fold to a c-bet.

#11 19th August 2009, 12:35 AM

According to my database and tiny sample size at 2nl, 5nl, and 10nl, when you are in the SB:

It's better to raise an unopened pot with any J9o or worse hand.
It's better to call with 2+ limpers with any J9o or worse hand.
It's better to call than fold, but not by much, against 1 limper with any J9o or worse hand.

Obviously, this does not mean it will work in higher stakes, as has been pointed out many times.

#12 19th August 2009, 12:46 AM

wat, so with 1 limper, its better to call with 93o than it is to fold?

#13 19th August 2009, 2:24 AM

I'd suggest sticking with (calling and unraised pot) your SB perhaps 1/5 of the time, randomly. (See my tag for your personal random generator). Raise with your SB about 1/4 of the time if it's just you and the BB. And tweak those percentages however you want.

I actually detest calling at all, but it sometimes makes sense in the SB. I like raising with whatever, though -- since you are going to be out of position, it makes sense to create a sense of strength. Also, since we are presuming you are going to be trying a steal on the flop, first of all you are the raiser and you are therefore expected to bet out. And if they all fold, then the pot is already bigger than the blinds.

This sort of play has the advantage that it can bring the people who limp with big hands out into the open a bit sooner, so you can fold like the wind...

#14 19th August 2009, 2:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by switch0723

wat, so with 1 limper, its better to call with 93o than it is to fold?

Stop harassing him!

#15 21st August 2009, 4:34 AM

of every position i play (no i dont have stats, don't make me prove it)...i think i fold sb the most. even marginal hands i might limp with in other spots, i might fold in the sb, i dont' know why, i hate the sb, it should be against the rules to be in the sb. i'm generally playing a hand i'm willing to also go all-in with pre-flop, if need be, from the sb. its not a spot i consider anything to be "half-off"...i think i'm just throwing chips away adding anymore to what i'm giving up

Similar Threads for: Texas Hold'em Poker > I limp from SB
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
* Jubilant January Cash Chat Thread *	WVHillbilly	Cash Games	2108	30th January 2011 10:35 PM
**Juggernaut June Poker Chat Thread****	vanquish	General Poker	2024	1st July 2009 1:17 AM
MTT GUIDE	SexyAceJoker	Tournament Poker	50	15th March 2009 10:20 PM

Play Texas Hold'em Online Poker \| I limp from SB
BetOnline Poker is a top online poker site accepting all US players with an INSTANT cash bonus of up to $900 FREE. It also has a casino and sports betting available.	PokerStars is one of the best places to play poker online that accepts US players. Use PokerStars marketing code CCHAT for a $600 bonus. Note: No US Players Accepted.