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  Poker - I can't beat $10NL
 
  #106  
03-03-2008, 1:38 PM
Emperor IX
<--HOTTEST
 
Plays at: Pokerstars
Likes: Hold 'em
Posts: 1,836
Trying too hard to play poker still. Just sit back, wait for sets/AA/KK/QQ/AK.

10nl isn't poker, it's a money farm
 

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  #107  
03-03-2008, 2:28 PM
NoWuckingFurries
CardsChat Elite
 
Location: England
Posts: 1,918
Quote:
Originally Posted by Four Dogs
Ahh.

By fully raked, I meant raked at the full 5 or 10 percent, not capped. At the higher limits, the cap has a way of softening the punch. When your at $100 table or higher, capped at $3 most rakes will be maxed out essentially lowering the rake to pot ratio to less than the full percentage. Not so at .05/.10. If the rake is 10%, that's what they take.
Oh OK, thanks, that makes more sense to me now - big difference in rake, no wonder they offer rakeback deals, they can afford to!
  #108  
03-03-2008, 3:03 PM
Deathwish238
Advanced Member
 
Location: Austin
Plays at: Pokerstars
Likes: Hold 'Em
Posts: 121
Looks to me like you're reraising all in with nothing too often. When they're not folding to big bets even though they have nothing themselves...I just don't even both trying to bluff at all.

Perhaps you'll have more luck at $5 NL or $25 NL like I do. People seem to be better players that know when to fold more often. Also, play shorthanded instead longhanded.
  #109  
03-03-2008, 3:07 PM
Emperor IX
<--HOTTEST
 
Plays at: Pokerstars
Likes: Hold 'em
Posts: 1,836
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathwish238
Looks to me like you're reraising all in with nothing too often. When they're not folding to big bets even though they have nothing themselves...I just don't even both trying to bluff at all.

Perhaps you'll have more luck at $5 NL or $25 NL like I do. People seem to be better players that know when to fold more often. Also, play shorthanded instead longhanded.
I don't know about 25nl (I've had some nasty experiences there) but you're definitely right about $5nl. I gotta disagree with you about short/long. The reason being that since we're going to be playing so tight, we kinda need the extra three opponents so that there''s a better chance we'll get some action on our bigger hands.
  #110  
03-03-2008, 3:27 PM
zachvac
Tenbob Curse Victim
 
Location: Cleveland, OH
Plays at: Pokerstars
Likes: NL Hold 'em
Posts: 5,765
I remember having this discussion awhile ago, where one poster claimed that anyone who could beat better players could beat worse players. The logic behind it was that if someone can win at higher levels and be using 3rd or 4th level thinking, that it shouldn't be hard for them to realize that they need to adapt and just use 2nd level thinking against people thinking on the 1st level.

This stood out right here: "Ok, this guy just can't fold ATo, no pair, no draw, but what am I supposed to do, just check and give up on the hand? Position and aggression are meaningless at this level, it really is just the cards?"

As you can see, you'll be reaching showdown much more often than you're probably used to meaning having a hand is that much more important. You're not playing against good players and if you try to act as if you are you're going to get burned as you were in a lot of these hands.

And of course this could be part of it: "FullTiltPoker Game #5472841218: Table Railbirds.com - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 15:47:55 ET - 2008/03/02"

but in all seriousness if your opponents aren't looking at anything other than their cards, and seeing "OOH OOH GUT SHOT I CAN'T FOLD THAT", then a bluff isn't going to work. The other side of the coin is your value bets will be paid off like crazy. You know you shouldn't be bluffing at these people, you just can't help yourself. Bluffing at a calling station is really no better than chasing a flush draw without odds or any other form of throwing money away.

Just tighten up preflop, you can probably try a cbet if you miss but if it is called you pretty much have to give up there, and just value bet the shit out of the hands you hit. That AT would have paid you off if you had a set as well, he couldn't see your cards.
  #111  
03-03-2008, 3:28 PM
zachvac
Tenbob Curse Victim
 
Location: Cleveland, OH
Plays at: Pokerstars
Likes: NL Hold 'em
Posts: 5,765
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor IX
I don't know about 25nl (I've had some nasty experiences there) but you're definitely right about $5nl. I gotta disagree with you about short/long. The reason being that since we're going to be playing so tight, we kinda need the extra three opponents so that there''s a better chance we'll get some action on our bigger hands.
Wait, you're saying 5nl players are better than 10nl players?
  #112  
03-03-2008, 3:56 PM
Emperor IX
<--HOTTEST
 
Plays at: Pokerstars
Likes: Hold 'em
Posts: 1,836
Quote:
Originally Posted by zachvac
Wait, you're saying 5nl players are better than 10nl players?
They're nittier because it's their whole roll.
  #113  
03-03-2008, 5:56 PM
aliengenius
Putting the AG in LAG
 
Location: Buffalo NY
Plays at: CC LB games
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Posts: 4,184
The railbirds table is always the juiciest one, with at least 35%+ seeing the flop.
  #114  
03-03-2008, 6:26 PM
zachvac
Tenbob Curse Victim
 
Location: Cleveland, OH
Plays at: Pokerstars
Likes: NL Hold 'em
Posts: 5,765
Quote:
Originally Posted by aliengenius
The railbirds table is always the juiciest one, with at least 35%+ seeing the flop.
lol, so if the railbirds table is always the worst, does that mean that joining railbirds actually makes you worse or does it just attract the worst players out of the general population?
  #115  
03-03-2008, 6:31 PM
aliengenius
Putting the AG in LAG
 
Location: Buffalo NY
Plays at: CC LB games
Likes: pin-up girls
Posts: 4,184
Quote:
Originally Posted by zachvac
lol, so if the railbirds table is always the worst, does that mean that joining railbirds actually makes you worse or does it just attract the worst players out of the general population?
Who can tell the causalities of donkeys...
  #116  
03-03-2008, 6:44 PM
4Aces
is watching you
 
Location: Grinding the Micro's.
Plays at: Jokerstars
Likes: NLHE & PLO
Posts: 1,904
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor IX
They're nittier because it's their whole roll.
From what Ive seen at stars, the nl5 tables are not nitty at all.
nl5 is actually looking more profitable than nl10 for me. Ive been beating nl5 for 12.5 ptbb/100 but only beating nl10 by 5ptbb/100.

Also, not only is the rake at fulltilt disgusting, so is the software and the support. Ive been sending them emails for days and still no reply.
I just really cant see how a piece of shit site like that has got so big. I have more respect for cake poker.
  #117  
03-03-2008, 9:12 PM
Tyler Durden
New Member
 
Plays at: PokerStars
Likes: hold 'em
Posts: 3
The key is to be patient. I remember when I first started playing 10nl. I was in such a hurry to make money, but all I did was lose money. Also, make sure you have no distractions; no web browsing, watching tv, chatting on AIM, etc.

Good luck
  #118  
03-03-2008, 10:23 PM
WVHillbilly
Christmas Azzhole
 
Location: Almost Heaven
Plays at: Full Tilt
Posts: 2,964
Are you playing any tighter since the last time you posted your stats? I think you need to try to get your VP$IP down to around 15% and get your AF up by playing raise or fold poker. You're doing too much calling preflop.

Also you need to remember that this is not tournament poker. You can't threaten these players with elimination by throwing out a big bet. It also seems like you're targeting small stacks with your big bluffs and as you know this is the exact opposite of who you should be threatening with an all-in move.
  #119  
04-03-2008, 12:43 AM
aliengenius
Putting the AG in LAG
 
Location: Buffalo NY
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Dropped three more buy-ins today. Losing w my sets. Unreal.

I don't agree with getting vp$ip down to 15%-- you wont get any action, even from the idiots. Also, when they don't fold to c-bets, raising is kind of pointless, as having the lead in the hand is not as valuable. Lower preflop raise percentage, with your aggression coming post flop when you hit seems to be the better path, especially out of position.

What was the verdict on the rake? 10% is going to come out no matter what the cap is on both Stars and FT, right?
  #120  
04-03-2008, 12:46 AM
Emperor IX
<--HOTTEST
 
Plays at: Pokerstars
Likes: Hold 'em
Posts: 1,836
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4aces07
From what Ive seen at stars, the nl5 tables are not nitty at all.
nl5 is actually looking more profitable than nl10 for me. Ive been beating nl5 for 12.5 ptbb/100 but only beating nl10 by 5ptbb/100.

Also, not only is the rake at fulltilt disgusting, so is the software and the support. Ive been sending them emails for days and still no reply.
I just really cant see how a piece of shit site like that has got so big. I have more respect for cake poker.
Which $5max you mean? .02/.05 or .01/.02? the 1c2c tables are veerry nitty. Ask cboom and kesc, they've been sitting with me in a lot of games recently. And we all leave with decent profit everytime. Most of mine just comes from muscle.

I'm assuming you mean 2/5 because 12.5ptbb/100 at 1c/2c is definitely not better than 5ptbb/100 at 5c/10c lol
  #121  
04-03-2008, 12:49 AM
jaketrevvor
CardsChat Elite
 
Location: Rainy Olde England
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Debating the rake and subtle vpip/pf raise statistics is, although helpful, not the main problem obviously if you're dropping multiple buy-ins in a given session. STOP MAKING MOVES. Clearly running bad is an issue but the thing that jumps out here is that you're playing poker not 10nl. Position means nothing. Image means nothing. Cards mean everything. Bluffs and plays gone wrong seem to have lost you many buy-ins, just cut these out. Oh, and start running better .
  #122  
04-03-2008, 1:05 AM
tenbob
Dead Man
 
Location: The high sea's
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Yea gotta agree with Jake. Unless the games have changed substantially in the last year or so, playing hands for pure value is the only way, and ill say this in essence for a lot of nl$25 as well, even though bluffing can be more successful.

Another thing i notice from some of the hands that your posting AG your playing a VERY volitile style, pushing small edges for stacks whilst being profitiable in the long run, that run can be long, and variance can be a killer for a recretional player.

Just curious how many hands have you logged in now ? Still looking to see a graph. You could also post your PT screenies for your biggest losing hands, (with the extra detail tab)
  #123  
04-03-2008, 8:50 AM
aliengenius
Putting the AG in LAG
 
Location: Buffalo NY
Plays at: CC LB games
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Posts: 4,184
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenbob
Yea gotta agree with Jake. Unless the games have changed substantially in the last year or so, playing hands for pure value is the only way, and ill say this in essence for a lot of nl$25 as well, even though bluffing can be more successful.

Another thing i notice from some of the hands that your posting AG your playing a VERY volitile style, pushing small edges for stacks whilst being profitiable in the long run, that run can be long, and variance can be a killer for a recretional player.

Just curious how many hands have you logged in now ? Still looking to see a graph. You could also post your Poker Tracker screenies for your biggest losing hands, (with the extra detail tab)
21,766 hands. Down $215.63 (4.96ptbb/100). Biggest losing hands as AQo (-$79.55) and AKo (-$38.55).

I feel I played well yesterday, except at the very end of the 1,500 hand session.

Lost twice w QQ to sets vs. smaller stacks (is this avoidable? I can't really see how):

FullTiltPoker Game #5483225475: Table Snow Trail - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 10:10:47 ET - 2008/03/03
Seat 1: Krisso ($18)
Seat 2: loloo84 ($6.35)
Seat 3: Vandalar ($9.90)
Seat 4: JamesBont ($10.10)
Seat 5: flinto ($6.40)
Seat 6: IQ_999 ($11.05)
Seat 7: adolf8880 ($1.85)
Seat 8: Leo The Liger ($11.65)
Seat 9: aliengenius ($10)
Vandalar posts the small blind of $0.05
JamesBont posts the big blind of $0.10
aliengenius posts $0.10
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to aliengenius [Qs Qc]
flinto calls $0.10
IQ_999 folds
adolf8880 has 15 seconds left to act
adolf8880 folds
Leo The Liger raises to $0.50
aliengenius calls $0.40
Krisso folds
loloo84 folds
Vandalar folds
JamesBont folds
flinto calls $0.40
*** FLOP *** [Jc 7h 5c]
flinto bets $1.50
Leo The Liger folds
aliengenius raises to $9.50, and is all in
flinto calls $4.40, and is all in
aliengenius shows [Qs Qc]
flinto shows [Js 5d]
Uncalled bet of $3.60 returned to aliengenius
*** TURN *** [Jc 7h 5c] 2♥
*** RIVER *** [Jc 7h 5c 2h] 9♠
aliengenius shows a pair of Queens
flinto shows two pair, Jacks and Fives
flinto wins the pot ($12.15) with two pair, Jacks and Fives
aliengenius: unreal
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $13.45 | Rake $1.30
Board: [Jc 7h 5c 2h 9s]
Seat 1: Krisso didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: loloo84 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: Vandalar (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: JamesBont (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: flinto showed [Js 5d] and won ($12.15) with two pair, Jacks and Fives
Seat 6: IQ_999 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: adolf8880 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: Leo The Liger folded on the Flop
Seat 9: aliengenius showed [Qs Qc] and lost with a pair of Queens

and

FullTiltPoker Game #5484072986: Table Desert Marigold - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 12:01:48 ET - 2008/03/03
Seat 1: mevans5791 ($3.10)
Seat 2: cipches ($1.50)
Seat 3: gggeorgio ($10.60)
Seat 4: TheGaempler ($3.50)
Seat 5: slvrJ ($4.20)
Seat 6: siniperca ($13)
Seat 7: aliengenius ($12.05)
Seat 8: M Flatley ($2.85)
Seat 9: Caroli61 ($3.75)
Caroli61 has 5 seconds left to act
Caroli61 posts the small blind of $0.05
mevans5791 posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to aliengenius [Qc Qd]
cipches folds
gggeorgio folds
TheGaempler folds
slvrJ calls $0.10
siniperca folds
aliengenius raises to $0.45
M Flatley calls $0.45
Caroli61 folds
mevans5791 calls $0.35
slvrJ calls $0.35
*** FLOP *** [3h 4d 7c]
mevans5791 checks
slvrJ checks
aliengenius has 15 seconds left to act
aliengenius bets $1.55
M Flatley folds
mevans5791 has 15 seconds left to act
M Flatley is feeling angry
mevans5791 folds
slvrJ calls $1.55
*** TURN *** [3h 4d 7c] J♥
slvrJ checks
aliengenius bets $2
slvrJ raises to $2.20, and is all in
aliengenius calls $0.20
slvrJ shows [4s 4c]
aliengenius shows [Qc Qd]
*** RIVER *** [3h 4d 7c Jh] 7♠
slvrJ shows a full house, Fours full of Sevens
aliengenius shows two pair, Queens and Sevens
slvrJ wins the pot ($8.45) with a full house, Fours full of Sevens
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $9.35 | Rake $0.90
Board: [3h 4d 7c Jh 7s]
Seat 1: mevans5791 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: cipches didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: gggeorgio didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: TheGaempler didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: slvrJ showed [4s 4c] and won ($8.45) with a full house, Fours full of Sevens
Seat 6: siniperca didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: aliengenius showed [Qc Qd] and lost with two pair, Queens and Sevens
Seat 8: M Flatley (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: Caroli61 (small blind) folded before the Flop

I run goot:

FullTiltPoker Game #5487427699: Table Bush Garden - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:11:55 ET - 2008/03/03
Seat 1: Iron Cougar ($21)
Seat 2: thhorn42 ($9.85)
Seat 3: NHMF ($1.65)
Seat 4: aliengenius ($9.95)
Seat 5: Atlasin ($3.10)
Seat 6: Crespokarl ($9.65)
Seat 7: christopherZ ($2.45)
Seat 8: TX_Dillo ($10.25)
Seat 9: robinr1 ($3.60)
Atlasin posts the small blind of $0.05
Crespokarl posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to aliengenius [7h 7c]
christopherZ folds
TX_Dillo folds
robinr1 has 15 seconds left to act
robinr1 folds
Iron Cougar calls $0.10
thhorn42 raises to $0.20
NHMF folds
aliengenius calls $0.20
Atlasin folds
Crespokarl calls $0.10
Iron Cougar calls $0.10
*** FLOP *** [7s Th Ac]
Crespokarl checks
Iron Cougar bets $0.30
thhorn42 calls $0.30
aliengenius raises to $2.05
Crespokarl folds
Iron Cougar calls $1.75
thhorn42 folds
*** TURN *** [7s Th Ac] 9♥
Iron Cougar checks
aliengenius bets $7.70, and is all in
Iron Cougar calls $7.70
aliengenius shows [7h 7c]
Iron Cougar shows [Ah 6d]
*** RIVER *** [7s Th Ac 9h] 8
aliengenius shows three of a kind, Sevens
Iron Cougar shows a straight, Ten high
Iron Cougar wins the pot ($18.65) with a straight, Ten high
aliengenius adds $10
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $20.65 | Rake $2
Board: [7s Th Ac 9h 8d]
Seat 1: Iron Cougar showed [Ah 6d] and won ($18.65) with a straight, Ten high
Seat 2: thhorn42 folded on the Flop
Seat 3: NHMF didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: aliengenius (button) showed [7h 7c] and lost with three of a kind, Sevens
Seat 5: Atlasin (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 6: Crespokarl (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 7: christopherZ didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: TX_Dillo didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: robinr1 didn't bet (folded)
  #124  
04-03-2008, 11:48 AM
Four Dogs
deadinaditch
 
Posts: 2,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by aliengenius
Dropped three more buy-ins today. Losing w my sets. Unreal.

I don't agree with getting vp$ip down to 15%-- you wont get any action, even from the idiots. Also, when they don't fold to c-bets, raising is kind of pointless, as having the lead in the hand is not as valuable. Lower preflop raise percentage, with your aggression coming post flop when you hit seems to be the better path, especially out of position.

What was the verdict on the rake? 10% is going to come out no matter what the cap is on both Stars and FT, right?
No. only at Tilt. PS is 5%. The cap is higher, but since most .05/.10 pots never get there, that's irrelevant.
  #125  
04-03-2008, 12:42 PM
tenbob
Dead Man
 
Location: The high sea's
Plays at: pokerstars
Likes: Holdem
Posts: 5,891
Doubling up short-stacks with overpairs is somewhat unavoidable, regardless of the limits you play.

Also avoid tables like this........Notice how we have 6 shortstacks. We want to be playing deep most of the time if at all possible, in order for us to take advantage of implied odds, as most of the time a nl$10 player, will not fold an overpair, regardless of how deep they are playing.

FullTiltPoker Game #5484072986: Table Desert Marigold - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 12:01:48 ET - 2008/03/03
Seat 1: mevans5791 ($3.10)
Seat 2: cipches ($1.50)
Seat 3: gggeorgio ($10.60)
Seat 4: TheGaempler ($3.50)
Seat 5: slvrJ ($4.20)
Seat 6: siniperca ($13)
Seat 7: aliengenius ($12.05)
Seat 8: M Flatley ($2.85)
Seat 9: Caroli61 ($3.75)
Caroli61 has 5 seconds left to act
Caroli61 posts the small blind of $0.05
mevans5791 posts the big blind of $0.10

Get off Full Tilt, your paying an extra 5% rake, and unless you have a RB deal its not worth it, (even then its not worth it but better), and from my experience the rings on FT are just too nitty for my liking anyway, pokerstars plays better.

Why all the massive flop bets ?
Why are you raising to isolate donks with small pairs, when they play better multiway?
Why are you bluffing missed draws on the river ?
Why don't I see any hand posteds in HA for discussion?
Why don't I see you in any hand discussions in HA ?

I still think that your thinking like an MTT player.

TBH if i was running at almost 5ptbb/100 over a 20K hand sample, id be very very worried. It also looks to me like you don't really care all that much either. Trust me, if you get your game right, this level is very beatable. But you have to work at it. (dont mean to come across overly harsh AG)
  #126  
04-03-2008, 1:09 PM
robwhufc
Bloodsport? Nah, just fun
 
Location: Sittingbourne, UK
Posts: 5,556
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenbob
I still think that your thinking like an MTT player.
I think that's pretty much it in a nutshell tbh.

AG, i've been EXACTLY where you are, done well at the MTT's and SNG's, but just can't do a thing at the NL ring games. I've come to accept now that it just doesn't suit me. I certainly don't think they they are beyond me, I just don't find them of interest and they are not suited to my personality or personal situation. I haven't got the time or patience to put in the 4-5 hour sessions. I see hand histories posted from respected and successful members on site, and I think "why are they playing for 2 hours, and winning $5-$10"? Of course those $5-10 build up, and these are the players that amass the bankrolls and are then able to go up the levels, but I want to bluff people, I want to be the big stack bully, I want to hoover up the blinds, I want to move up the payout list, I dont want to win 30 cent pots, I dont want to win little pots and lose big ones, and I dont want to play on a table where i'm getting no action.

I'm not a ring game player, but i would suggest that there are a large number of rock players, playing 4 or 8 tables, waiting and waiting for a big hand, running Pokeroffice and PAhud, and they are making consistent gains form players that are either total fish, or are playing too loose and too aggressive.

You either need to completely change your style or just concentrate on what you are good at which is tournaments, where your loose agressive style is more likely to get you paid off.
  #127  
04-03-2008, 6:08 PM
NoWuckingFurries
CardsChat Elite
 
Location: England
Posts: 1,918
Quote:
Why don't I see any hand posteds in HA for discussion?
He's posted some in this thread...
  #128  
04-03-2008, 6:39 PM
Dorkus Malorkus
afk brb
 
Location: Birmingham, UK
Plays at: Stars
Likes: You
Posts: 8,319
I don't profess to be a ring game guru myself (though I am a winner at 25NL ), but Liam and Rob have it pretty much bang on, I think.

To be honest I haven't played much with you, but from what I have seen (both first and 'second'-hand), your tourney game essentially revolves around acquiring a stack early on and maintaining it so you have chips to throw around when the time comes (you do tend to either bust very early or final table CC events, after all!).

Some of the hands you've posted here still reek of "I'm trying to build a stack" syndrome. Doubtless upon reflection you know that this isn't an effective way to play ring games against loose-passives, but it's hard to break habits. Simply, you're used to playing a somewhat LAG style while deep-stacked (i.e. in early tourney stages) and are having some difficulty reverting to effective $10NL strategy from this.

Of course, the difference is that the blinds don't go up in ring games and nobody's 'tournament life' is at stake, hence you are probably even more likely to get called down light by a 'standard' $10NL player than by a 'standard' low-buyin tourney player (even in the early stages). The static blinds and horrible players really do combine to make patience the order of the day.

It's cliché, but big pots really are for big hands. That 77 hand you posted where you shoved the turn for like 4 times the pot with third pair or something was horrible, and obviously you know it was, but it's entirely likely you're making less-exaggerated but not much less horrible plays in other hands.

Avoid fancy play syndrome - FP made a really good blog post about it a while ago which may be worth digging out. One of the QQ hands where you called an EP raise immediately stands out - by calling we're merely inviting others into the hand and heightening the chances that we will make a mistake later in the hand. Reraise, get the EP raiser to call (which they invariably will at $10NL), and play a swollen pot heads up against someone who;s range you're crushing. Don't call thinking either "hey someone in LP might squeeze and I can shove here" (98% of $10NL players don't know what a squeeze is) or "by calling I'm representing a weaker hand than I have which could be advantageous on future streets" (91% of $10NL players won't put you on a range of hands ever).

You're obviously running bad to some degree as well, the lost races and set over sets are evidence enough, but don't worry about that - variance will take care of itself, but mistakes won't.
  #129  
04-03-2008, 7:17 PM
Effexor
SH1 0151
 
Location: My House
Plays at: FTP. Stars
Likes: Ice Cream
Posts: 1,408
*What Tenbob said*

I've had a very difficult time adjusting to ring games. Here's the main point that I want to get across since I've been thinking about this a lot this past week.

Ring games are all about implied odds. Where in a MTT or SNG, I'm almost never calling a raise with 78s, or 79s, or even playing 79s. The effective stack sizes other than maybe the first round of blinds make it not profitable. Plus, being the first in the pot you've got fold equity where in a cash game you don't have the fold equity like in a SNG. Meanwhile, in a cash game I'm calling a raise in position with a good drawing hand every time, specially if 2 or more people have shown interest. Yes I may miss 9 times out of 10 and lose 3BB every time, but the time I hit I've found I typically win upwards of 100 BB easily. Thats why TB mentions stack sizes and playing against people shortstacked. 78s on the button vs a 100BB stack's 3BB raise? hell ya I'm playing that. vs a 20BB stack? never. Same with small PP's. It's basically the polar opposite than MTT thinking. In a MTT, I'll happily push 55 against a small stack that doesn't threaten mine. Cash game? forget it

No offense to the rocks / nits out there, but I don't agree that a vpip of 14 is a money maker. Low 20's is plenty tight enough and you'll still get action. AG, I guarantee that your post flop play is way better than 98% at this level. Play those good drawing hands, even OOP if the implied odds make it worthwhile.

Also, for the most part, just play the cards you are dealt. Bluffing and making plays are long term losers at 10nl.

Don't go broke with top pair in an unraised pot.

Tone back the aggression a tad (specially PF), don't push small edges so hard. I read an article where Phil Ivy said that the place to take risks is in MTT's and not in ring games. I really didn't like the hand where you 3bet AIPF with AK. Nobody at these levels reraises with AQ/AJ type hands. This is your MTT thinking here using your fold equity, which I am sure you have exactly none vs someone reraising PF.

FWIW, I'm rooting for you on this endeavor.
  #130  
04-03-2008, 7:35 PM
Irexes
Im in ur tornamentz -
 
Location: Essex, UK
Plays at: Stars
Likes: MTTs & Ring
Posts: 4,896
I was going to write some of the same stuff.

I've had half a dozen goes at playing ring over the last 3 years and Rob's post really echos my experiences. I can relate entirely.

Then suddenly this time around something clicked and I've developed a completely reengineered game for Ring. The key has been a different mental approach to the game from my MTT one. Reading those hands above I see a tourney approach which is seeing you massively overcommitted in some spots where you should be keeping it small.
  #131  
04-03-2008, 8:07 PM
jaymfc
I give up2.....
 
Location: arkadelphia ,ar.
Plays at: bodog
Likes: love em all
Posts: 3,365
[quote=Dorkus Malorkus;737807]

That 77 hand you posted where you shoved the turn for like 4 times the pot with third pair or something was horrible, and obviously you know it was


third set but can you explain a little more here why it was so bad I thought it was good move bad result
  #132  
04-03-2008, 8:24 PM
Dorkus Malorkus
afk brb
 
Location: Birmingham, UK
Plays at: Stars
Likes: You
Posts: 8,319
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaymfc
third set
wrong hand i think.

edit: details were a bit off seeing as i didn't notice villain was short but it's still horrid obviously.
  #133  
04-03-2008, 11:40 PM
aliengenius
Putting the AG in LAG
 
Location: Buffalo NY
Plays at: CC LB games
Likes: pin-up girls
Posts: 4,184
ok, I have some questions.

1. Regarding preflop aggression-- lower, right? Since having the lead in the hand isn't as valuable?

2. C-bets: no? What about against someone who ALWAYS calls the flop bet? It would seen that this would be an ideal person to bet into, as they will call your missed big ace with a weaker hand, but.... ?

3. This is overall a more passive form of poker in general? i.e., we will be doing a lot of calling preflop and check folding the flop, right?
  #134  
04-03-2008, 11:52 PM
Irexes
Im in ur tornamentz -
 
Location: Essex, UK
Plays at: Stars
Likes: MTTs & Ring
Posts: 4,896
More about potsize managment than tournies I feel.

You are looking to build the pot quickly with strength.

But when you are weak you are looking to try and take a stab without creating a situation where you are then doomed to put in more chips behind on subsequent streets.

Position postflop is of course critical for cbets.

I've found cbetting works providing it's sized right and I then let go in the face of resistance or if the turn is checked to me and the board allows have another go there. Betting the turn with nothing if called on the flop requires a really solid context to be worthwhile even if I sense they are weak.

If I'm playing for stacks it's because I am almost certain I'm ahead and I don't mind folding a lot of small pots when I'm ahead

Probably going to need to get more elaborate at higher levels, but the number of fancy plays I've made in 20k hands at 25NL is tiny. I'm viewing it as a solid grounding before I move to games where people are playing the player rather than the cards.
  #135  
05-03-2008, 12:46 AM
Emperor IX
<--HOTTEST
 
Plays at: Pokerstars
Likes: Hold 'em
Posts: 1,836
All this is making me want to sit at a 2c/5c table on pokerstars (that's also $10max)
  #136  
05-03-2008, 1:37 AM
aliengenius
Putting the AG in LAG
 
Location: Buffalo NY
Plays at: CC LB games
Likes: pin-up girls
Posts: 4,184
1. I tightened up today (vp$ip down to 18.48).

2. I eliminated all off suit broadway hands, unless I had a tight image and the blinds were stealable when it was open folded to me late.

3. I tightened up considerably from the small blind.

4. Didn't stack for the whole ten bucks at all today. Here is my biggest single loss in one hand, a flush over flush:

FullTiltPoker Game #5499047831: Table Bellview - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 14:30:09 ET - 2008/03/04
Seat 1: xxwonkoxx ($4.10)
Seat 2: Blohm84 ($13.30)
Seat 3: christopherZ ($2.10)
Seat 4: GlamourGirl8 ($6.80)
Seat 5: aliengenius ($10)
Seat 6: Climber112 ($11.50)
Seat 7: PythonWannabe ($4.50)
Seat 8: OnkelKC ($10.70)
Seat 9: adolf8880 ($1.70)
GlamourGirl8 posts the small blind of $0.05
aliengenius posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to aliengenius [7d 8d]
Climber112 folds
PythonWannabe folds
OnkelKC folds
adolf8880 folds
xxwonkoxx folds
Blohm84 folds
christopherZ folds
GlamourGirl8 raises to $0.30
aliengenius calls $0.20
*** FLOP *** [5d Jd 3h]
GlamourGirl8 bets $0.25
aliengenius raises to $0.75
GlamourGirl8 calls $0.50
*** TURN *** [5d Jd 3h] 3♣
GlamourGirl8 checks
aliengenius bets $1
GlamourGirl8 calls $1
*** RIVER *** [5d Jd 3h 3c] 4
GlamourGirl8 checks
aliengenius bets $5
GlamourGirl8 calls $4.75, and is all in
Uncalled bet of $0.25 returned to aliengenius
*** SHOW DOWN ***
aliengenius shows [7d 8d] a flush, Jack high
GlamourGirl8 shows [Qd Ad] a flush, Ace high
GlamourGirl8 wins the pot ($12.25) with a flush, Ace high
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $13.60 | Rake $1.35
Board: [5d Jd 3h 3c 4d]
Seat 1: xxwonkoxx didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: Blohm84 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: christopherZ (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: GlamourGirl8 (small blind) showed [Qd Ad] and won ($12.25) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 5: aliengenius (big blind) showed [7d 8d] and lost with a flush, Jack high
Seat 6: Climber112 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: PythonWannabe didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: OnkelKC didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: adolf8880 didn't bet (folded)

5. Still only made 85 cents on my sets, few that they were.

6. Biggest wins were weird hands, one where I sucked out on a guy who slowplayed AA, the other where I randomly decided to play Q6s otb after several limpers and flopped a boat.

FullTiltPoker Game #5500717183: Table Tara - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 16:56:13 ET - 2008/03/04
Seat 1: thenewevil ($2)
Seat 2: iboing ($14.55)
Seat 3: TX_Dillo ($9.30)
Seat 4: Bloodyappie ($1.85)
Seat 5: Lash16 ($11.40)
Seat 6: Cuuldurach ($1.85)
Seat 7: lojick01 ($8.25)
Seat 8: aliengenius ($13.15)
Seat 9: Bulldozer154 ($1.85)
aliengenius posts the small blind of $0.05
Bulldozer154 posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #7
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to aliengenius [8c 9s]
thenewevil folds
iboing folds
TX_Dillo folds
Bloodyappie folds
Lash16 calls $0.10
Cuuldurach folds
lojick01 calls $0.10
aliengenius calls $0.05
Bulldozer154 checks
*** FLOP *** [2c 4s 9h]
aliengenius bets $0.40
Bulldozer154 folds
Lash16 calls $0.40
lojick01 folds
*** TURN *** [2c 4s 9h] 7
aliengenius bets $0.80
Lash16 calls $0.80
*** RIVER *** [2c 4s 9h 7d] 8♠
aliengenius bets $2.80
Lash16 raises to $5.60
aliengenius raises to $11.85, and is all in
Lash16 calls $4.50, and is all in
Uncalled bet of $1.75 returned to aliengenius
*** SHOW DOWN ***
aliengenius shows [8c 9s] two pair, Nines and Eights
Lash16 mucks
aliengenius wins the pot ($21) with two pair, Nines and Eights
Lash16 is sitting out
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $23 | Rake $2
Board: [2c 4s 9h 7d 8s]
Seat 1: thenewevil didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: iboing didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: TX_Dillo didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: Bloodyappie didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: Lash16 mucked [As Ad] - a pair of Aces
Seat 6: Cuuldurach didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: lojick01 (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 8: aliengenius (small blind) showed [8c 9s] and won ($21) with two pair, Nines and Eights
Seat 9: Bulldozer154 (big blind) folded on the Flop

FullTiltPoker Game #5501095025: Table Grandeur - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:26:59 ET - 2008/03/04
Seat 1: Regy69 ($9.75)
Seat