How strong do you play Ace Rag?

I am just wondering how strongly you play Ace / 2-9 in MTT tournament play? Do you call raises or even reraise with this hand. Latley I have been getting beat with A2 or A3 when I have AQ or AK its not because I am limping and they are catching, they are calling 3-4 times bb raises and catching. I just don't understand the preflop call with Ace Rag. Do you really think you are ahead preflop against a 4 times bb raise? Lets say you are lets say the guy has KQ you still are racing for no reason. I don't know just wanted some opinions. Thanks

Ax is terrrible. I hate it with a passion.
But think of the situation you described on the other side. You should be happy that people are calling your AK with Ax, you are 3 to 1 favourite going to the flop. Thats pretty big and is good for you.

I tend to leave rag ace alone unless I get desperate and I have to push one in to steal the blinds

True that hand gets u in alot of trouble...........................

why bother even considering playing ace-rag....

On the button or heads up from the blinds. That's it. Or, almost. If the tables soft, open for a raise in late position. If you get called from behind make one CB if you hit an ace. Call it quits if you get called again.

It mainly depends on my position. If it's folded to me and I'm in the cutoff with A4s I'll often raise it.

If I'm on a five-handed table and I'm holding A9s I'll raise it all day long no matter what my position is.

But needless to say, I generally don't call a raise with these hands.

i hardly ever play the ace/rag.
there are certain times that i do play those cards , such as late in a trny at final table with less than 5 players i might call with the ace/rag. or if i am in the blinds i may call with the ace. other than those times i throw them away. i never raise with these hands.
the same goes with the small pocket pair, usually the only way to win with these hands are to hit your set.

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if its chep in late pos i will hoping to hit set.if not fold.

Play Ace/rag stongly when the blinds get high and ONLY in late position when the action has folded to you. That way you have a better chance in stealing the blinds in those later stages of a tournament with a descent hand preflop. Of course if you get re-raised you may want to consider folding since you most likely be drawing to a bigger Ace or a big pocket pair. You also may want to consider your opponent's range of hands played when being re-raised with your Ace/rag.

Also, Ace/rag is a premium hand when in a heads up situation at a final table or when there are 4 or less players remaining at the table. In that case I would play them stongly. Again you always should consider your opponents range of hands, and what kind of reads you may have developed for your opponent.

Any situations other than stated above, its a toss into the muck with those Ace/rags.

I think A9 has cost me more money than any other hand - when you've picked up nothing in three rounds of the table, it's one of those hands that ends up looking better than it really is.

I actually find A2 thorugh A5 more tempting than A6 through A9, because at least 2-5 has straight possibilities. They all need very specific flops to help them though, and I don't play many of them if I can help it.

i only play ace rag for a cheap flop when i think someone has that bigger ace,

because if i flop that 2 pair, oohhhhhh baby i get paid off but i practically check fold just top pair....but only if i can see it cheaply, but i hardly do it because i seem to get attached to top pair

its effective and if the guy is still in the tourney, he goes on tilt

I stay away from them in general

but I will play them if I see my opponents over valuing A t-k (as is often the case.

if I'm playing A2 with a board of A27, and my opponent has AK, I will take him all in much of the time. in that case, I risked alittle, and I got alot.

doesn't happen often but when it does, it gives you a good boost.

someone mentioned that they like A 2-5 more than A 6-9 because of the straight posibbilities, and I used to agree because straights are just so profitable. But I've since changed my mind. With a hand like A K-T, the only straights you can get with both cards are nut straights. The opposite applies to A2-5. When you play and hand like that, you are vulnerable to losing a large sum of money to small suited connectors like 67 or 46. many times, you'll lose a good chunk of money to someone playing a hand that you think is ridiculous like 36 (with a board of 245, you hold A3) but your mistake was that you thought your hand was invincible because, "nobody would possibly play 36" oh believe me, they're out there. (i'm one of them)

For this reason, if I ever do play A2-5, I'm weary of that possiblity, but A 6-9, thats one let thing to worry about.

if I'm under enough pressure, of course, I'll go all in with A-anything but my preffered A-Rag is A8 or A9. my theory is thus:

There are twelve cards behind A, and that is K-Q-J-T-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2.
if i'm under alot of pressure, and I have A8, I can beat 6 other possible Aces out there (A2, A3...A7), but 5 other possible Aces will beat me (AK, AQ,...A9). At A7, 6 aces will beat me, and I can beat 5. (this applies before the board is flipped of course) it may be a small difference, but its what I use to figure out what I'd like to play.

play the game dont let the game play you

You hit sets often with A-rag? I think you meant trips.

No, it is not a premium hand at a shorthanded table. It is a good hand, but A4 v JT is not much of a favorite - thus it can't be called premium.

Very insightful.

Ace rag is good for final tables or when there are 4 or less say a sit and go. Raising pre-flop 2-3X is a good point here. Then position always plays a part where to raise pre flop on a full table or tourney. Mixing up your style is a good thing. However one shouldn't be married to Ax so much. Also limping with Ace rag suited in any position isn't to bad either.

these guys that are saying Ace-Rag is a good hand shorthanded are the guys you will make the most from if you don't play Ace-Rag.

Absolutely.

'jazz

I've played A-9 depending on position.On the button or if players limping in. I'm suprised how often I hit the flop playing these combinations.Keep in mind don't make a game plan aroung A-9. Use common sense

I stand corrected, I meant to say "playable" not "premium".

Fair enough. Playable I definitely agree with.

It depends?

If I want to show down the hand, I will probably avoid ace rag but I generally play LAG enough that I can take ATC and win a pot without a showdown. Obviously A2-type hands are verrrry marginal in all-in situations/big pot showdowns, so if you are looking to win that type of hand, you wouldn't be playing it. At the same time, try to remember that there are not a lot of very dominant hands in terms of showdown value (especially in all-in situations/big pots), so saying that your AT was beaten by A2 may merit the question: why were you playing a big pot with AT in the first place, etc.

In late position(cutoff, button) in an unopened/unraised pot, bring it in for a standard raise. If you hold Ax in one of the blinds, same play, raise into an unraised pot. I rarely ever open in an other positions with a dry ace, and will only call a raise with such a hand if I feel an opponent is making a desperation rais, or is attempting a steal.

In early to mid position, I generally fold, but it's a real situational thing. If I'm one of the big sracks at a table, I might bring it in for a raise if I'm first into a pot, but I'll rarely play them in multi-way pots, and will not limp into a family pot.

Like so many other decisions, there is no hard and fast rule that I follow, it's mainly situational.

I understand the theory behind Ace rag, but my problem I am having is that more and more people I play against won't let the hand go if the ace hits and I normally get sucked out against it. I can understand for pot odds or you are in posotion, or stacked late in a tourny, but I mean when you have no reason to play the hand and you are involved against 2-3 people and a raise or reraise in front of you. I could never call 567 bets in a ring game to suckout on 4-6 outs. I dont get it. Just my rant.

You're joking, right?

3- or 4-handed, A8s becomes a huge hand. Everything down to A2o is very much play- and raise-able.

While you wait around for A-Q and A-K I take down pot after pot unchallenged by raising every ace I get dealt. And when you do finally take a stand, I know I'm probably beat and won't lose a lot of money to you.

I pretty much agree with everyone else about A-x is just bad poker. I think its the hand that will get the most people in trouble. Say you even have a pretty good A-10s, and your opp. has A-Q. Its just trouble hands.

Unless I have a load of chips and so does the orginal raiser. I might call with A- (2-5), to maybe flop a wheel that they cannot put you on. Also if the flop comes A 2 J. AK is gonna get smashed at this point and they cannot put you on calling a raise with a A-x Low.

But I would say in general in tournament play STAY away from A - x.

Only time I would even consider A-x. Is late in a tournament and short stacked its a good hand to go all in to just pick up the blinds. But only use this strategy from time to time.

-Pasha

who says I'll be waiting for A-Q or A-K?

at 3 or 4 handed, A-8 is playable, not a huge hand. Its the kind of hand you try and steal blinds with, not the kind of hand you want to get into a big pot with.

you are saying A - Rag is a huge hand and then start to give examples where you are stealing blinds. Yeah, good steal blinds with, 3-4 handed when the blinds are large. But not a huge hand.

if you want to start talking more about short handed games and headups play, then you are talking about and entirely different beast.

well you must be playing the same tables than me because i also keep getting beaten by A2 , A3...

AX is great 4 handed... for instance you are UTG which means there is only the button next to act. The blinds are put up, you raise with say A6, what are the odds that you are always beat going to the flop if anybody just calls you. You have position on the blinds and if the button flat called you pre-flop. Pretty darn good chance that your ace is good pre-flop when the ace does fall. 4 Handed, one can now raise pre-flop with these types of hands.

Of course A-8 is huge on a 3-handed table. Wanna do the math and find out how likely it is for one of your two opponents to be holding a better hand?

5% chance of one of your opponents holding a better Ace (i.e. A-9, A-T, A-J, A-Q or A-K).
11% chance of one of your opponents holding a pocket pair that is not 88 or AA
1% chance of one of your opponents holding AA or 88.

With A-8 on a 3-handed table you're 83% to be holding the best hand, these are better odds than overpair vs. underpair.

If you remove the bottom half of all pocket pairs (statistically a coinflip, but they'll rarely call you to the river without a set), you're almost a 90% to be ahead going into the flop. This certainly fits my definition of "huge".

not really. just because your opponent is holding a better hand less of the time doesn't make this a profitable a profitable hand.

the fact about A-Rag is, yeah, perhaps a decent amount of the time you will win a pot when it comes down to the end.

but when you pair of Aces with a crappy kicker you can get bluffed.
when you overplay Aces with a crappy kicker you can lose alot to Aces with a better kicker


alot of you guys fail realize that just because a hand has a good chance of winning most of the time, doesn't make it a profitable hand. There is still strategy and tactics to think about.

statistically 72 is not the worst hand. but it is still the worst hand with regard to profitability.

Thats some fuzzy math. How did you get 90% again? At a three handed table holding A8 against two random hands your hand is 38% favorite to win. Not quite the lock of 90%.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.115% 38.23% 01.95% 3630115 184933.83 { A8o }
Hand 1: 30.006% 28.63% 01.42% 2718901 134764.33 { random }
Hand 2: 29.878% 28.43% 01.50% 2699015 142483.33 { random }


And if you are ranking it in starting hand value, Skalansky hand rankings put it at 100/169. Not a huge hand. Really.

A8 is a playable hand three handed but it definitely not the lock you are portraying.

Where exactly did we come up with the fact that both opponents call me preflop, on the flop, on the turn and on the river with their random hands?

I didn't talk about a triple race situation, I talked about the best hand preflop. Any old J2o can hit a flop when A8 misses, but that wasn't my point. Because any old J2o can hit when AKs misses, and the big slick would by most be considered "huge".

Alright then. I really wanna play you shorthanded

You still didn't answer MY question. What math are you using to put A8 as a 90% favorite preflop. I just showed you it wasn't. Skalansky rates it at 100 out of 169 starting hands. In case you don't understand: starting hand = preflop. That makes it a approximate 60% favorite if you go that route. Real monster buddy.

What's that have to do with anything. Because I consider A8 a playable, raise able hand but not a monster in a shorthanded game you think I'm a bad player? That says a lot about you.

If you see all five cards, then you're a 62% favorite against a random hand, that's true. But going by that reasoning, you'd be only a 67% with AKs against a random hand. Real monster buddy.

Once again, in most cases your opponent won't get to see five cards. So you're considerably more than a 60% to win. If your opponent plays Q9 and doesn't hit a pair on the flop (he'll hit a pair only 1/3 of the time and you may hit yourself) then the pot is practically yours.

You can't give him a 38% to win when he gets to see only 3/5 of the board.

To put it differently: what do you consider AKs on a 9-handed table? Does that qualify as huge?
If so, then why does A8s on a 3-handed table not qualify as huge?

Just because an opponent doesn't pair a flop doesn't automatically give you the pot. Most pots won HU/shorthanded are won with out pairing your hole cards. I don't understand what that has to do with A-Rag being a monster hand. Initially you were talking being a favorite huge favorite preflop now you're saying A8 takes down flops because your opponent doesn't pair? Slightly confused.


So then just throw out all starting hand rankings. Of course the assumption when ranking hands PREFLOP is that you will see all 5 cards, and of course that rarely happens. BUT that was not the original discussion. You stated "you're almost a 90% to be ahead going into the flop" (direct quote). I was curious how you came up with 90%.

Yes, A8 gains value at a shorthanded table - I never disagreed with that. I have already said that and I'm getting tired of saying it. A8, however, is not some 90% monster that is a lock to win. That's all I'm saying.

Hijack over.