How should i play this ???

You have a full stack at a 9 player cash game and dealt utg you raise 3x BB prflp .. Everyone folds but the BB , he has only been at the table a couple hands so no reads on him,he also has a full stack and he reraises 3x your bet ?? Do you,

A.) Call him and see a flop ?? and what if a Ace or King hits ???
B.) Shove back at him with the rest of your stack ??
C.) Fold ??

What's the correct play

It depends.

Sorry, just wanted to be first to get that in!

Why does it depend? On what?


I 4bet to 27bb, call a shove. Shoving seems excessive.

In response to the given answers:
A) Is the only option if we're for some reason unwilling to stack QQ preflop. If an A or K hits we're calling as many streets as we think he'll bluff, and if checked to we're generally checking back and calling most of the way to the river. If both an A and K hit, I don't like floating more than one bet and don't mind folding to a cbet.
B) Against unknowns, even unknowns who've 3bet our UTG open, stacking QQ is fine. The reason I'm not shoving is that it's a 91bb raise, which is exploitable but since no one will actually exploit it, it's not horrible. The main downside to shoving is going to be that it's going to be hard to 4bet light (which you wont do often anyway).
C) No.

Oh and random tip: Don't raise 3bb UTG, raise 4bb minimum, 5bb is better though.

Just a thought.

My opening raise is ALWAYS 4bb (40c)
I do this to prevent giving away info on my hand and to stop opponents seeing when I do or don't want a call.

Obviously when I am EP I sometimes get more callers than I want and blind stealing with high pocket pairs can seem frustrating but I figure I gain more overall by being unreadable.

Maybe the fact that ALWAYS betting 5bb in EP, ALWAYS betting 4bb in MP and ALWAYS betting 3bb in LP in itself could make me unreadable?

Maybe they will think I am TRYING to be unreadable BECAUSE I don't want too many callers so they will call me more?

Perhaps I should stop overthinking and just stick to the 4bb 100% of the time!

Do you think that I should increase my standard raise in EP to 5bb and reduce it to 3bb in LP?

I guess this will help cut through my opponents and get me a little more action in LP with premium hands.

Won't this make me more readable however?

Thoughts?

No it wont.

Why do you think it would?

Erm... because they will know that I am raising more because I am in EP.

Having written that It doesnt really seem such a big deal!

I would like to make the point though that I believe varying my bets to suit the number of limpers IS giving away information.

Could be the fact that I have been rasing exactly 4bb for so long that any other way apppears daft!

I can't think of too many reasons not to open UTG or UTG+1 with 5bb but...

Is raising from late position 100% of the time and blind stealing with a 3bb bet going to cause problems with pot odds and pricing people in?

Ahh yes, the magical player type who is dumb enough to think your UTG opening range is the same as your LP range yet smart enough to pick up on bet sizing tells and correctly adapt.

Personally I just assume they realise ranges widen with position and make opening raises in acordance with my overall strength from that position.

lol yes! you do have a way of putting things!

Ok I get it.

That just leaves...

Is raising from late position and blind stealing ALWAYS with a just a 3bb bet going to cause problems but pot odds and pricing people in?

If you raise 5BB UTG everytime you are not giving away any information with your 5BB raise other than "I am UTG" which they can see anyway. So it is fine.

Likewise if you raise say 4BB + 1BB for each limper and there are 2 limpers raising to 6BB is not giving away any information about your hand other than "I am raising a bit more because there are limpers".

In both cases the raise size does not reveal information about the strength of your hand.

However if you raise 2BB with a bad hand and 5BB with Aces then it is very bad. Because when you raise 2BB you are saying "I have nothing" and when you are raising 5BB you are saying "I have Aces!"

Spend a minute thinking about that and you'll realise why it makes sense. Infact you can alter your raise sizes situationally quite a lot as long as you don't include your hand strength in the equation.

My standard open from the BTN is 2.5bb.

If people refuse to fold the the range narrows and the raise size goes up accordingly. (or I find a better table)

I disagree.

You hand strength and hand type CANNOT be taken out of the equation because its always relative to the situation in the hand. Some hands want lots of callers, some don't. Varying the size of your raise as depending on how many people you want to join you for the floop will always give information to your opponents.

Perhaps you can get away with this at 2NL but at 10, 25 and 50 I am not so sure.

The reason you vary your bet size with the number of limpers is to do with the odds you are giving the first limper to call and the cascade of limpers after that call.

What is the point in raising if you give correct odds for ATC to see a flop?

I call and see if the A hits. Not afraid to stack with QQ, though, but I'm in position compared to BB. On the flop, he checks to me, I bet the pot. An A hits the board and he bets big...I worry. Folding is not going to happen preflop.

As to bet sizes, (which, as I reread the original question is not exactly a hijack of the thread) a consistent positional raise does not give away the strength of a hand. Some people think a bigger bet UTG is appropriate, as most people understand that an UTG raise usually means a pretty nice hand. (Most people play a wider range in LP than UTG.) So, of course, a larger raise UTG would be expected. Others like a smaller bet UTG (also with a huge hand) because the smaller raise invites a re-raise -- when the play gets back to you, you can choose whether to 3-bet, shove or look to make your money playing on the flop. It can be a great check-raise position. Both concepts have merit.

I do kinda see where you are coming from but the nature of NLHE (enormous variance... takes 1000s of hands to see any improvements you've made to your strategy) and my arrogant stubburn nature makes it hard for me to make big departures from my regular game.

I can however accept that you probably know more about this game than I do and are a winner at substantially higher stakes so will strongly consider giving the limper thing a go.

There are usually limpers... Would it be better for me to start with 3bb as a baseline and add to that or stick with 4bb + the extra?

Hi,

For me, it depends on how many chips you still have. If you are not short stack, I would call and wait for the flop, if there is no king or aces, I would bet the pot value.

???

Shove all in or re-raise back almost everytime!

4bb+1 per limper is most likely going to be better. 3bb+1 is fine though. My view on this is the tighter your range relative to your opponents, the bigger your standard raise sizes should be. Bigger sizes allow you to get more value and punish people playing back light (calling or raising), and smaller sizes keep the SPR high allowing you to barrel and float and generally draw (since raising light pre-flop, you're going to need to improve most of the time post-flop) and it also means you need to take down the blinds unchallenged less often to make more of your money back.


You really need to add the +1 per limper. It's important.

Ok I was coming round to this +1 limper idea but I have thought of a MAJOR snag that could prevent it working for me. Its to do with my existing strategy.

Ok well basically I have different play for every position at the table and play different hands from different positions depending on the number of limpers. Examples:

KJo, QJo, A7s, A4s
will raise with these hands from the button with up to 2 limpers
will raise these hands from the cut-off with 1 single limper
will raise these hands from the hijack with no limpers, ie an unopened pot

Moving up the list 2 sets of hands we get K9s, A8s and T9s
will raise with these hands from the hijack with up to 2 limpers
will raise these hands from the hijack-1 with 1 single limper
will raise these hands from the hijack-2 with no limpers, ie an unopened pot

Pocket pairs I play differently and also KK and AA have their own strategy but basically I divide my other 27 or so opening hands in to 9 groups. This allows me to always open with the same raise but means that all things being equal, the more limpers that have come in to the hand and the earlier my position, the stronger the hand that I am likely to have taken to war.

This strategy has served me VERY well thus far, My VPIP on the button is 3 times my VPIP UTG. Some may scoff at me playing KJo and QJo from the hijack but with 14/13 numbers and 35% steal I am not in any way a loose or passive player... at least not preflop!

Does this strategy not negate the need to bet more strongly with extra limpers seeing as I will tend to have a stronger hand anyway?

I hope I managed to explain my strategy in a way that you guys can understand!

No, it doesn't. You can get more value by raising more.

B is the best choice IMO.

Look its ultimately up to you what you do / how you play.

It seems to be a common theme in threads with you that people tell you what you need to do and there then follows 63 posts of why you cant do that.

Instead of telling us why you cant do something, figure a way out of doing it.

Trust me when I say there is virtually no chance you have stumbled on a strategy that is superior to the strategies that people who have been playing longer are suggesting.

Its good that you have a questioning nature, but if you choose to question all that is said you really need to start coming up with some answers of your own.

Well yes obviously I am here just to waste my time looking for strategies that I know are far inferior to my own... just so that I can reduce my profits and prevent myself enjoying poker.

Its obvious that my questioning nature offends you. I am sorry for that and understand fully if you choose to no longer reply to my posts. Thanks for all your help.

Thanks, yes I would like to try this. It looks like it could help plug a pretty big leak in my game. Just need to be able to fully understand WHY before I try it so I will do some research. I hope you don't think I seem ungrateful and I appreciate your help. Its just my questioning nature!

If you disagree with something then write a detailed explanation as to why so that it can be discussed.

What you seem to do quite often is to ask a question, disagree with everything thats said and really offer little explanation as to why.

Noone is going to write a poker manual for you.

Stu, we differ. Everyone here can speak for themselves. Lets put this to bed.

Ok now I'm thoroughly confused.

From what you just wrote, you may or may not be trying to have some kind of argument with me.

I am genuinely trying to help you.

Its good to question things but as this is a forum, if you want to question things you have to do most of the leg work yourself. You cant expect people to write increasingly more detailed explanations until you understand whats being said. Forums dont work that way and you wont get the most from them if you try to use them like that.

The concepts being discussed are certainly new to you and I fully appreciate they are confusing at first. However its not rocket science.

Taking this topic as the example, people are saying to add 1BB/limper. Its not difficult. Ultimately 63 posts later you are going to conclude that what was said at first was entirely correct and thats what you should be doing.

People will gladly give you pointers, but unless you fully explain why you disagree its impossible to give you a satisfactory answer; because we dont know why you disagree (especially when we also know the advice is 100% correct).

I agree, if you take those 17 words as anything but me trying to diffuse a clash then yes, you are confused. I am not trying to argue with you, quite the opposite. But you say that I seem to 'disagree with everything thats said and really offer little explanation as to why' This is utterly ridiculous.

I ask a lot. Sometimes the answers that I get just don't make sence. If I disagree or ask for clarification I always explain my thinking to the contrary. It just seems to me that you see this as a sign of disrespect or strangely, laziness. Noone else has taken issue with me!

I put it to you that its infact you that appears to crave confrontaion, or at least has to have the last word.

I do a lot or legwork. I am relatively new here but have started many interesting threads. I am not here just to take.

I will add 1bb per limper. But I will continue to question. And this will be the last 5 minutes that I will waste quarreling with you.

You really haven't understood what I wrote.

You must fully explain why you disagree.

Its fine to disagree but its difficult to help you if we dont know why you disagree.

Then you will never recievie it again.

goodbye and good luck

LOL

I take it you deleted that post because you do in fact want help.

I posted that in anger. An unhelpful emotional responce.
Makes you feel better though quoting me doesn't it.
Man you are hilarious!

I truly dont know what you are getting angry about.

I usually quote people. I find it adds to the coherence of the post.

Frank, I do not think Stu was trying to argue with you. All he is saying is if you disagree you should say why, that way he can help you understand what he is saying more.

To the OP I would call and see the flop here, then based on the flop if no over cards raise, prob lose my stack to KK and reload.

Actually re-reading it his re-raise to me screams AA or KK, I would prob fold and observe his play more, if he was bluffing he will do it again and you can make a move then.

I think it is transparently obvious that Stu was trying to goad me, and to my discredit he succeeded. I think this says more about him than it does me. I guess some people just clash. Life would be very boring if you got along with everbody wouldn't it! I will keep out of his way and hope he can do the same as I have no interest in continuing any dialogue with him.

Perhaps I should be clearer and take extra effort to explain when I ask a question and disagree with the answers that I am given.

Like poker. A learning experience.