how to make most outta hands

#1 11th October 2007, 5:35 PM

hi i seem to win alot of hands but never seem to make much i raise they fold when they do call i never no wheather to put them all in when i do i lose and when i dont i win its frustrating trying to get the balance as i say im new to poker

#2 11th October 2007, 6:57 PM

Well;s what style are u playing? Are you tight or loose. You might be to tight if everyone is folding when you have a hand. Just change ur play up if your playing tight than play more loosely, don't be afraid to show people your playing 4 5 offsuited. And raise pre-flop, if people are folding to u after the flop than at least you got their call before the flop. So, there's some more chips for you. That's the best i can give u, just listen to the other members on here they will much better advice for you. Good luck at the tables

#3 12th October 2007, 8:37 AM

Hi, Ive been away from my pc for awhile and am fairly new to poker. I can relate to weeman. I have sometimes felt that other players on the table must somehow know exactly what I have as everytime Ive been dealt a really good hand they always seem tofold whether I raise or not.
I really appreciate all the helpful information at this forum and am anxious to start playing again.
Thanks!

#4 12th October 2007, 3:08 PM

The way you have to look at it is if you have a Good Hand,
is it better to say I have a good hand but what if they have a Geat Hand.

If they folded to you, the chances are there were not many players that even had cards worth playing, let alone calling.

If you play a Tight Agressive Game Players tend to give you respect
when you do put your chips in the pot.

Consider the position you are playing those 'Good Hands' also...
If you are in the BB or UTG (under the Gun) first to act and raising 3-5X the Big Blind, then naturally everyone will usualy fold to you.
Especially if you only play 1-2 hands per orbit of the Button.

If you want action on your 'Good Hands' and play a solid game there is nothing wrong with limping if there are only 2 other players in the Pot.

Mike Caro talks about Playing Agressive Maniacs like this..
Flat calling their raises with A-A, K-K, Q-Q, A-K suited.
If you hit on the Flop then it is Gold..keep calling or Check-Raise to gain maximum Pot Potential.

If the Flop Misses you then you have to fold to agression that is unlikely to hit your hand. (ie. Paired Board, 2-Suited Flops against your cards)

There are Some Good Strategy Guides at the Top of the Forum Tabs.
And some really Quality Posts about playing Pot Odds/Implied Odds and how to calculate whether it is 'mathematically' Correct to make a call.

Figure out how many outs you have to make your hand to how many cards are left to come to how many cards are gone out of the Deck.
And how many players are still involved in the Action. And what could they have that is keeping them in the Pot.

Now there are 9 players at the Table and 6 have folded Pre-Flop.
-Leaving 3 Players in the Pot to see the Flop.

Say you have A♥-K♥ hearts..
The Flop comes --- 9♥ - 10♣ - 7♥

You have to determine how many cards are in a suit (13)
You have two and there are 2 on the Board. - That leaves 9 (potentially)
meaning 'Implied'. Out of a Deck of 52 now minus 18 cards dealt at the start of the new Hand. That leaves 34 Cards left in the Deck.

So now there is perhaps 9/34 that are hearts. Consider the odds.
26% chance that another Heart will hit with one card to come on the river. So with 2 cards to come you have approx. 52% chance to hit your card.
SO its a coin flip really! If you think that some of the Hearts in the Deck have been folded then that % rate drops, and the potential that your opponents have One or both cards suited in Hearts also. Which lowers the probability even more.

~Now according to the right play, you need to consider how your opponents play, are they Bullies, or are they Cautious? Do they Trap, or do they Bluff? ~
~So are you going to Bet, Check, or Raise this Flop? or Re-Raise if someone put in a Bet before you.
Now Remember you want to get value IF you hit another Heart on the Turn or River.
That brings it to Expected Value (EV)~

So say you are First to Act after the Flop. How are you going to Play this hand?
If the Players after you are cautious then you Bet 1/2 the Pot, if they fold then you get the Pot and did not Lose! If they call then you are getting +EV and Pot Odds.
If they are Agressive, then you check and see where they are at.
Remember there is a potential straight on the Board not to mention a potential Straight Flush-Draw.
If they Bet 1/2 or Pot Size you still have Odds to Call as long as you are not going to go broke (a consideration).

Flop was 9♥ 10♣ 7♥
So now the Turn comes down J♠ this is also another scare card BUT it is also giving you extra outs. Hitting a Q in the river will give you the Nut Straight and Hitting a Heart gives you the Nut Flush.
This gives you the Implied 9 Hearst left + 4 Queens as outs = 13 with one card to come

So there is another consideration that has to happen.

Who bet what and how much? What the result was after the Flop?
How Many 'outs' do you still have?
How much of a Stack do you have?
What are your Opponents Holdings? And their Stack Size?
How the Betting is going to stimulate the Action.
What are your Opponents Card Range & Style of Play? LAG/TAG

Surely anyone in the Pot still must have either a flush draw Q-high, or a Straight (perhaps 8-Q or 6-8) and maybe even 2 pr. (9-10) and and either of them may be holding 2 Hearts (8-Q) or One with (10h)
Or even yet, 10-8 of hearts for the Straight flush draw. And a stright as a hand.
Either Opponent may well both be holding straights - 8-Q or 7-J and very likely if they Bet or Called on the Turn, and if they pushed All-In then for sure they have the 8-Q straight and want you OFF the Hand.

So Do you make the call?? You Already have 3/4 of your Stack in the Pot and the Action is on you to Complete the round of Betting.

This is where you need the Skills to 'Read' Opponents, and also Know your Implied Odds, and Pot Odds, and Expected Value (EV) if you do in fact hit your hand.

If your Opponents have their hand made (ie.Straight) and you are chasing is it mathematically correct to Call? If your Opponent has 2 pr. then they only have 4 outs to make a Full-House beating your flush or straight.
Considering that you still have potentially 12 outs to have the Best hand,
It is still Mathematically Correct to make that call. But still your choice.

Now the River Hits Q♥ and you have the Nuts....Flush Ace High and also dominating with the straight Broadway thus allowing your opponents to believe they have the 'Best Hand' and also having some of their outs in your hand. They both hit straights - Fireworks! Huge POT!

Opponent 1 Shows K♠Q♠ Nice Hand! (Sorry Pal! )
Opponent had what we thought Q♦8♥ -Nice Hand but..
You Win Because you played the hand with the proper odds.
Take Down a Pot and Tripled up and busted one Player Out!

~Back in the Real World if you have these probabilities then you should be able to win at least 60% of the time. By having a Good read on your Opponents and what 'Range' of cards they play and how often they play them and how they Bet gives you enough information to Catch them and Beat them and Take their Chips.~

~*The math may not be 'exact' but it gives you the concept and why it is an Important factor to playing Poker with more Dignity!~

#5 12th October 2007, 3:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flops'm&Bets'm

The way you have to look at it is if you have a Good Hand,
is it better to say I have a good hand but what if they have a Geat Hand.

If they folded to you, the chances are there were not many players that even had cards worth playing, let alone calling.

If you play a Tight Agressive Game Players tend to give you respect
when you do put your chips in the pot.

Consider the position you are playing those 'Good Hands' also...
If you are in the BB or UTG (under the Gun) first to act and raising 3-5X the Big Blind, then naturally everyone will usualy fold to you.
Especially if you only play 1-2 hands per orbit of the Button.

If you want action on your 'Good Hands' and play a solid game there is nothing wrong with limping if there are only 2 other players in the Pot.

Mike Caro talks about Playing Agressive Maniacs like this..
Flat calling their raises with A-A, K-K, Q-Q, A-K suited.
If you hit on the Flop then it is Gold..keep calling or Check-Raise to gain maximum Pot Potential.

If the Flop Misses you then you have to fold to agression that is unlikely to hit your hand. (ie. Paired Board, 2-Suited Flops against your cards)

There are Some Good Strategy Guides at the Top of the Forum Tabs.
And some really Quality Posts about playing Pot Odds/Implied Odds and how to calculate whether it is 'mathematically' Correct to make a call.

Figure out how many outs you have to make your hand to how many cards are left to come to how many cards are gone out of the Deck.
And how many players are still involved in the Action. And what could they have that is keeping them in the Pot.

Now there are 9 players at the Table and 6 have folded Pre-Flop.
-Leaving 3 Players in the Pot to see the Flop.

Say you have A♥-K♥ hearts..
The Flop comes --- 9♥ - 10♣ - 7♥

You have to determine how many cards are in a suit (13)
You have two and there are 2 on the Board. - That leaves 9 (potentially)
meaning 'Implied'. Out of a Deck of 52 now minus 18 cards dealt at the start of the new Hand. That leaves 34 Cards left in the Deck.

So now there is perhaps 9/34 that are hearts. Consider the odds.
26% chance that another Heart will hit with one card to come on the river. So with 2 cards to come you have approx. 52% chance to hit your card.
SO its a coin flip really! If you think that some of the Hearts in the Deck have been folded then that % rate drops, and the potential that your opponents have One or both cards suited in Hearts also. Which lowers the probability even more.

~Now according to the right play, you need to consider how your opponents play, are they Bullies, or are they Cautious? Do they Trap, or do they Bluff? ~
~So are you going to Bet, Check, or Raise this Flop? or Re-Raise if someone put in a Bet before you.
Now Remember you want to get value IF you hit another Heart on the Turn or River.
That brings it to Expected Value (EV)~

So say you are First to Act after the Flop. How are you going to Play this hand?
If the Players after you are cautious then you Bet 1/2 the Pot, if they fold then you get the Pot and did not Lose! If they call then you are getting +EV and Pot Odds.
If they are Agressive, then you check and see where they are at.
Remember there is a potential straight on the Board not to mention a potential Straight Flush-Draw.
If they Bet 1/2 or Pot Size you still have Odds to Call as long as you are not going to go broke (a consideration).

Flop was 9♥ 10♣ 7♥
So now the Turn comes down J♠ this is also another scare card BUT it is also giving you extra outs. Hitting a Q in the river will give you the Nut Straight and Hitting a Heart gives you the Nut Flush.
This gives you the Implied 9 Hearst left + 4 Queens as outs = 13 with one card to come

So there is another consideration that has to happen.

Who bet what and how much? What the result was after the Flop?
How Many 'outs' do you still have?
How much of a Stack do you have?
What are your Opponents Holdings? And their Stack Size?
How the Betting is going to stimulate the Action.
What are your Opponents Card Range & Style of Play? LAG/TAG

Surely anyone in the Pot still must have either a flush draw Q-high, or a Straight (perhaps 8-Q or 6-8) and maybe even 2 pr. (9-10) and and either of them may be holding 2 Hearts (8-Q) or One with (10h)
Or even yet, 10-8 of hearts for the Straight flush draw. And a stright as a hand.
Either Opponent may well both be holding straights - 8-Q or 7-J and very likely if they Bet or Called on the Turn, and if they pushed All-In then for sure they have the 8-Q straight and want you OFF the Hand.

So Do you make the call?? You Already have 3/4 of your Stack in the Pot and the Action is on you to Complete the round of Betting.

This is where you need the Skills to 'Read' Opponents, and also Know your Implied Odds, and Pot Odds, and Expected Value (EV) if you do in fact hit your hand.

If your Opponents have their hand made (ie.Straight) and you are chasing is it mathematically correct to Call? If your Opponent has 2 pr. then they only have 4 outs to make a Full-House beating your flush or straight.
Considering that you still have potentially 12 outs to have the Best hand,
It is still Mathematically Correct to make that call. But still your choice.

Now the River Hits Q♥ and you have the Nuts....Flush Ace High and also dominating with the straight Broadway thus allowing your opponents to believe they have the 'Best Hand' and also having some of their outs in your hand. They both hit straights - Fireworks! Huge POT!

Opponent 1 Shows K♠Q♠ Nice Hand! (Sorry Pal! )
Opponent had what we thought Q♦8♥ -Nice Hand but..
You Win Because you played the hand with the proper odds.
Take Down a Pot and Tripled up and busted one Player Out!

~Back in the Real World if you have these probabilities then you should be able to win at least 60% of the time. By having a Good read on your Opponents and what 'Range' of cards they play and how often they play them and how they Bet gives you enough information to Catch them and Beat them and Take their Chips.~

~*The math may not be 'exact' but it gives you the concept and why it is an Important factor to playing Poker with more Dignity!~

No... you cant use the 18 cards dealt at the beginning of the hand to figure odds, theres no reason why those arent hearts. You can use the 5 cards you can see (hole cards and board). So, out of your 13 outs, you know 4 are gone. So, that means your odds of hitting on the turn are 9/47. Closer to 18% (I think, didnt really want to use a calculator). If you miss on the turn, chances on the river are now 9/46. After doing all the math on that I think your actual odds of hitting your flush are about 35%, not quite as good as a coin flip. I mean, this isnt taking into account A's and K's, both of which might be good with a board like that, but if youre just looking for the flush you need to be getting the right pot odds to make the call.

#6 12th October 2007, 6:46 PM

Thanks for the correction as clearly I was trying to point out that the 'concept' on the necessity of calculating the Odds, whether they are Implied/Pot Odds, as those vary based on Pot size.

I realize that the 18 cards dealt are unseen and should be factored into the calculation, I meant to edit it but my edit time had 'Timed-Out'
so there's that.

Essentially the calculation requires to consider that 18 cards are out of the Deck, and that the hands in Play Vs. the hands Folded with the Flop showing.

The Math as I stated was not accurate but for the purpose of demonstrating that 'FIGURING OUT' what is what AND where, in order to make any assumptions about whether to make whatever play you are thinking of doing, per round of betting.

~I do appreciate your clarification, and since the Post was Lengthy, I may clarify if you need to "Quote" for reference during a reply that you may remove the extra by back-spacing from the last quote to the top or edit the specifics of the point you are correcting about my error.
But really, thanks for that mention about the calculation as it needed to be pointed out!~

#7 12th October 2007, 7:50 PM

I was thinking about cutting down the quote... then I became my old lazy self and hoped it wouldnt matter all that much. Sorry about that.

#8 12th October 2007, 9:27 PM

Not a problem good points you made though! It just seemed buried from the huge quote..that is kind of detracts from the point you tried to make.

Maybe Admin. can do some House cleaning and get rid of this Post also in the Process!

#9 13th October 2007, 12:01 AM

took your advice worked well then ended up low stacked had aq had 2600 chips was just b4 button went all in 2 guys called sb and bb they were average stacked 6000-8000 flop ak8 guy 1 raises 800 guy 2 calls think im still ok with a q think they both got k
5falls guy 1 raises 800 again guy 2 calls think to myself dam they got 2 pair then the river is a 6 yet again guy 1 raises 800 guy 2 goes all in think yep two pair im out but no guy 1 turns over kj happy days guy 2 turns over 9/7 os what is that all about
bloody s8 but why was he even in the hand
is there a reason he would even think about nothing on flop

#10 14th October 2007, 4:18 PM

[guy 2 turns over 9/7 os what is that all about
bloody s8 but why was he even in the hand
is there a reason he would even think about nothing on flop]

that guy is a jackal, or donkey he thinks his two cards are best no matter what is on the board. I love those kind of players

#11 14th October 2007, 6:35 PM

Great advice here! I run into some of the very same problems. Thanks for the tips.

TheHoag57

#12 2nd February 2008, 9:32 PM

hi all been away awhile still not having much luck in nlhem freerolls seems any1 will stay in with anything about ready to give up lol

#13 3rd February 2008, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flops'm&Bets'm

This gives you the Implied 9 Hearst left + 4 Queens as outs = 13 with one card to come

^^^ not quite, there are 9 hearts and 3 queens, as one of those queens is the queens of hearts which you have already counted as a heart

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