How important is patience?

#1 27th February 2008, 5:56 AM

This is only my first post but been reading the site for awhile now. Started playing last November and only now is 'position' and 'pot odds' starting to make an inkling of sense. I only do 'play money' for now since I'm still learning.

But I'm wondering if patience and self control matter more then position and pot odds? Resisting going 'all in' with KK pre-flop when 5 other people are also 'all in' and shrugging off having folded the winning hand. Not having established a table image so waiting for the chance to go 1 on 1 with a bluffer even if others take him out in the meantime. Folding 44 hole cards pre-flop when half the table has raised too much and not caring much when the flop includes the other two 4s. Things like that for example.

After a horrible hit and usually miss SnG history I tried an experiment last night to test patience and self-control ignoring for the most part position and pot odds. I wouldn't play a single hand to the river unless I was 1 on 1 with an identified bluffer or had the nutz. The reason is, Full Tilts last hand feature is truly powerful to figure out people that show their cards.

All NL hold'em and aside from game 1 players were actually goodish:

First game: 250 buyin, 6 players, placed 1.
I was chip loser the entire game but had the image of being super-tight so managed to bluff to a win late game after letting the other players feed off the known bluffer.

Second game: 250, 9 players, placed 1.
Same as the first, but had the nutz twice so people became cautious if I was actually in a hand. Was a long game, about 40 minutes.

Third game: 250, 6, placed 2nd.
Longest game so far lasting almost an hour. No one was an 'all in' fool, all players were really tight and I was so stinking drunk I can't really remember what was happening. In heads up we just kept swapping chips, calling each others bluffs. It took awhile to chisle down the others stack. We both got bored and started to all-in, fold, all-in, fold. In the end, the opponent had the best high card and we both sighed in relief it was over.

Those three games I stuck to my no-river rule. In all three games if I'd seen the river I would have only won about four hands, all suck-outs. In contrast I would have lost over 100. My play scared people, making even the bluffers pause after seeing their stack fall from 8K to 2K with a pair of 2s.

And then there was game four where I went back to my old ways.

250, 6, placed 4th. I chased the flushs and straights, challenged high bets pre-flop and had the table image of a fish. An 'all-in' hooked, landed, scaled and cooked me.

Any opinions on patient and controlled play? Would it work at higher limits?

#2 27th February 2008, 7:20 AM

I'm a patient player-sometimes too patient. Of course, every one in a while, I'll play LAG (loose - aggressive), but I'm overall pretty tight. I've found that being patient usually pays off, but if you're playing a turbo or super turbo tourney, being too patient can be a downfall since the blinds increase so quickly. Higher limit ring tables-where blinds don't continually increase-can be a place to be patient, but you can lose money through blinds if you wait too long.

#3 27th February 2008, 7:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kindavacant

This is only my first post but been reading the site for awhile now. Started playing last November and only now is 'position' and 'pot odds' starting to make an inkling of sense. I only do 'play money' for now since I'm still learning.

Welcome to CC Kindavacant and a very nice first post you will find so much info here to help you with your game and just keep asking questions, thats the only way I learned or I read numerous posts.

We have some great people here to point you in the right direction, they are lots of fun and also knowledgeable.

But I'm wondering if patience and self control matter more then position and pot odds? Resisting going 'all in' with KK pre-flop when 5 other people are also 'all in' and shrugging off having folded the winning hand. Not having established a table image so waiting for the chance to go 1 on 1 with a bluffer even if others take him out in the meantime. Folding 44 hole cards pre-flop when half the table has raised too much and not caring much when the flop includes the other two 4s. Things like that for example.

I completely usually stay out of these situations which therefore to me reflects patience, I get a quick thought (but what if I go in with my two little cards and hit and knock out all these AKQJ's etc)I don't give in I'm considered a pretty tight player and a aggressive donk to. I think they call that TAG

I've learned recently that position plays a big part. To me it also depends on whether or not your in a 1$ MTT or a $10 SNG. There is a distinction between the two. I may call all in with A3d vs all the all ins, if I'm in a 1$ donkament, but would never consider it in the $10 SNG I'm not risking it why? I can wait for my hand(patience).

I have to tell you tho that my experiece from day 1 playing online poker has started as a freeroll junkie and I've built my bankroll on being patient and tight. I've only ever deposited aprox 200$ of my own money online in 5yrs. I've cashed out many times and have bankrolls at many sites.

Some would disagree with me. Many I know as they play the game much differently, cash games Lots play this as an only source of income. MY RULES DON'T APPLY

Any opinions on patient and controlled play? Would it work at higher limits?

Position does matter! &

One of my biggest rules which I don't follow much myself

is don't go into a MTT or even a multi-table SNG with not setting aside the hrs to actually play it.

Best of luck to you at the tables.

#4 27th February 2008, 8:48 AM

idk, i didnt have the patience to read the whole post

#5 27th February 2008, 8:55 AM

There are situations where not waiting for good cards is better than waiting for good cards but in general being patient is the first step to becoming succsefull in poker.

I think the key to what your trying to say is that you need to wait for the right situation to apply pressure on your opponents, and you need to wait for the right opponent to do this to.

For example trying to bluff a calling station wont work whereas its much easier to bluff someone who respects you and plays tight. Or vice versa.

#6 27th February 2008, 8:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by combuboom

idk, i didnt have the patience to read the whole post

did you get to play money and stop?

#7 27th February 2008, 11:35 AM

Thanks for the welcome guys.

Jessie THANK YOU for the definition of LAG. Seen the term thrown around and was always, “Eh. Huh?” Played some Turbo SnG and you're right, unless one gets some cards quick or the other players are easy to identify bluffers patience is kinda waiting to be blinded out.

Aloevera, I'm still working out how position plays a roll. I can understand it in mid to late game after I'm familer with the other players but early game it's more guess work since play money games seem so wacko. You know, raise with KK in early position, question folding the same in late position with three people all in already depending on the pot size. Could win, would probably lose so let them feed off each other type thing. And I've played some MTTs this month for the heck of it, never placed but my standings from oldest to latest all buy ins for 250:

Players Place
90 35
90 39
90 55
90 15
90 15
90 17
18 11
18 10
90 22
90 16

Always succumb to the evil 'all-in'.

Munchrs you got it. Patience and waiting for the right opportunity was the end result of the exprement. Problem was, it only applied to Mid to late game after I'd figured out the main players. Early game was a lot of folding but that set up the table image. Just not sure if that type of play would work in standard non-turbo money games and at what limit it'd fail at. As you figured out I did shake it up while playing, taking opportunities when available, setting people up and such.

As for calling stations, they'll call with anything as far as I've seen. I consider them bluffers, especially if they show their cards. Get a 99 raise 2300, they call and pray for another 9.

#8 27th February 2008, 1:27 PM

Being patient is ofcourse important for a poker player, but this doesn't mean a very tight playing style is always the best. If you're a good player an agressive style can pay off very well, very good tournament players usually play a lot more agressive than the style you described. But they face a lot more difficult decisions. For beginners playing tight is usually better, as it can also be very profitable with less difficult situations were you could easily make mistakes.

#9 27th February 2008, 10:44 PM

Since i play mostly multi table, patience is everything. If you let the donks kill each other at the start, and not risk yourself against them, you should be able to play properally after the main killing has stopped and real poker has begun

#10 28th February 2008, 12:30 PM

Emity, out of curiosity what kind of difficult decisions would a good aggressive player face?

Sagebomb, used the patient play tonight and finally placed in my first 90 seat SnG! Was chip loser most of the time but stayed at a table long enough to establish an image and got a couple lucky 'all-in' bluffs to steal the blinds so I could stay afloat and won one really stupid 'all-in' challenge from someone wanting to go to bed that called out their cards and doubled the stack securing a place in the top 5. Was fun but in the end once again succumbed to the 'all in' at the wrong time but the goal was to place not win, so went from 4th place to finish 8th. Funny thing was, the person who had the exact same cards a hand before my all in won his all in and I lost. Lol.

#11 28th February 2008, 1:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kindavacant

but the goal was to place not win,

Your goal should always be to win, If you only want to place it should be 1st place.

#12 29th February 2008, 5:16 AM

Understand your thinking Zorba but prefer to make achievable goals rather then get frustrated failing constantly at a goal too far out of reach. Got a couple serious flaws in my play that need to be worked out before setting a goal to always win.

But to simply place? Well, that works in swell with another goal: to not reload the play chips again.

#13 29th February 2008, 5:40 AM

have the patient is going to keep u out of awful situations or the ones u have no control, but having always in mind your only goal that has to be winning

#14 29th February 2008, 5:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

Your goal should always be to win, If you only want to place it should be 1st place.

An effective bankroll strategy when you play MTTs is to go in with the mindset to always cash. Once you become a much better MTT player, you can go with the mindset to always make the final table, which leads to winning!
imo

#15 29th February 2008, 10:51 PM

Patience is a lot of the game. Most of the time, you will be waiting for strong hands to play, but there will be times where aggression will be good for you, and times where you will have to push anything marginal in a short stack situation

#16 29th February 2008, 11:36 PM

Patience...99% folding..1/2 % call..1/2 % raise.

Takes guts to fold...but it's ok cause the game continues doesn't it?

#17 2nd March 2008, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kindavacant

This is only my first post but been reading the site for awhile now. Started playing last November and only now is 'position' and 'pot odds' starting to make an inkling of sense. I only do 'play money' for now since I'm still learning.

But I'm wondering if patience and self control matter more then position and pot odds? Resisting going 'all in' with KK pre-flop when 5 other people are also 'all in' and shrugging off having folded the winning hand. Not having established a table image so waiting for the chance to go 1 on 1 with a bluffer even if others take him out in the meantime. Folding 44 hole cards pre-flop when half the table has raised too much and not caring much when the flop includes the other two 4s. Things like that for example.

After a horrible hit and usually miss SnG history I tried an experiment last night to test patience and self-control ignoring for the most part position and pot odds. I wouldn't play a single hand to the river unless I was 1 on 1 with an identified bluffer or had the nutz. The reason is, Full Tilts last hand feature is truly powerful to figure out people that show their cards.

All NL hold'em and aside from game 1 players were actually goodish:

First game: 250 buyin, 6 players, placed 1.
I was chip loser the entire game but had the image of being super-tight so managed to bluff to a win late game after letting the other players feed off the known bluffer.

Second game: 250, 9 players, placed 1.
Same as the first, but had the nutz twice so people became cautious if I was actually in a hand. Was a long game, about 40 minutes.

Third game: 250, 6, placed 2nd.
Longest game so far lasting almost an hour. No one was an 'all in' fool, all players were really tight and I was so stinking drunk I can't really remember what was happening. In heads up we just kept swapping chips, calling each others bluffs. It took awhile to chisle down the others stack. We both got bored and started to all-in, fold, all-in, fold. In the end, the opponent had the best high card and we both sighed in relief it was over.

Those three games I stuck to my no-river rule. In all three games if I'd seen the river I would have only won about four hands, all suck-outs. In contrast I would have lost over 100. My play scared people, making even the bluffers pause after seeing their stack fall from 8K to 2K with a pair of 2s.

And then there was game four where I went back to my old ways.

250, 6, placed 4th. I chased the flushs and straights, challenged high bets pre-flop and had the table image of a fish. An 'all-in' hooked, landed, scaled and cooked me.

Any opinions on patient and controlled play? Would it work at higher limits?

You are doing GREAT. Keep up the good work!

In my experience, patience is EXTREMELY important. The skills you are acquiring on the play chip tables can be very valuable.

Throwing KK with 5 all in b4 you is intelligent. With 4 all in b4 me I throw away AA...sometimes with 3.

If you can survive long enough, your time will ALWAYS come.

Good luck, and have fun.

#18 2nd March 2008, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kindavacant

Emity, out of curiosity what kind of difficult decisions would a good aggressive player face?

Well as you are in more pots with weaker hands you have to decide if you want to play or not if you encounter resistance, this depends a lot on reads and information you have about the opponent.

#19 2nd March 2008, 1:36 PM

Patience is in holdem is knowing that anytime you fold, you'll have two cards in the next hand.

#20 2nd March 2008, 2:19 PM

That is a very nice post! For my part, patience is most definitely a huge factor in doing well. I don't mind getting my money in if I think I have the best hand - after that it is in the hands of the poker Gods!

One hard thing for me to learn, is how to fold when you think you have the best hand but are suddenly faced with the possibility that maybe you are wrong!

That total switch of mental approach, from hunter to hunted, and having the discipline to ignore your ego saying "push back" or "all-in" and to listen to the voice that says "you are probably beat", and then to throw away that top pair and moderate kicker - for me that is something I have had a lot of trouble with, and I am currently trying to change.

So, for me, yes - patience is huge. For sure, playing with impatience will get you dead fast!

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