HOH Volume 1 - Book Discussion Part 1

Today is the first day of our book discussion. These are the sections we agreed to discuss as part 1:

Introduction
Organization
The Hands
Brief Glossary

Part One: The Game of No-Limit Hold 'em
Introduction
The Cadillac of Poker
Information Availablilty
Controlling Pot Odds
What is a Hand?
Elements of a Hand
A Sample Hand
The Hidden Luck Factor in No-Limit Hold'Em

Please refrain from copying and pasting sections from the book in our discussion. Let's discuss it in our own words.

***Part 1 Discussion Sept 24th - Oct 8th***

To ensure proper credit is given for the book:
"Harrington on Hold'Em" was written by Dan Harrington and Bill Robertie and published by Two Plus Two.

I love the book so far and I am very excited about reading it. I will add my 2 cents on part 1 later today.

i started reading the book but had to put it down. sensory overload. i'm afraid that i will forget much of what i have previously read, so i'm gonna finish the chapter i am on and start again.

Just a brief note - posts in this thread that are not relevant will be deleted. Now for the discussion:

I was humbled right away lol. Just reading this brief beginning made me painfully aware of how much I have to learn.

Reading the introduction where he takes you through each part you will learn was exciting and scary. Will I really be able to grasp all of this and apply it to my game? Pot adds and hand analysis scares me the most. But I will take it one step at a time.

I am highlighting and keeping a journal as I read to help me try to retain what I learn.

He makes these first 4 points to consider when estimating that your hand will be better in the end than your opponent's:

1. likelihood that your hand will improve
2. estimate of what your opponent may hold
3. likelihood their hand will improve
4. money odds being offered by the pot

I have barely even been taking the time to do these basic things - especially figuring the money odds.

Having him put into words things I may do or think about really helps. "Avoiding making mistakes while inducing as many mistakes as possible from your opponents" sums things up nicely. (okay - that was almost a quote lol)

I learned the most in part 1 from the Elements of a Hand. It is so much to think about - but every thing he lists is so important. I will read and re-read this until it all sticks. We might want to break these down for discussion.

The sample hand was great to follow. I hope he does a lot of these - it helps me to see it played out like that.

Chime in now....

I love 'Elements of a hand" on pg 18. For a few reasons. It clearly illustrates to beginners and non-beginners alike that there are way more elements to consider than just the cards you are holding (more than many people realize).

Of the 11 things listed the cards you are holding are listed last. This is not by accident, as often times the other factors to be considered will be so overwhelming that your cards will no longer matter as to what move you need to make.

This was the first poker book that I ever read. In hind sight maybe not the best first book as I knew so little; but definetely eye opening to how much there is to consider in order to be succesfull.

I made note of this too. The thing I pay the most attention to is often the least important factor.

I kinda felt this way at first. But then hands started looking like a murder mystery to me. You have to look at all the characters and all the evidence, not just what you have in front of you.

The "pot odds" part is easy. It's the odds to hit your hand (AKA brake-even odds) that takes some memorizing. As for hand analysis, it's more than just numbers. It's the mystery of the whole hand that you must solve. The numbers are just part of the evidence.

The book sums this all up in the last part of the "Elements of a Hand" section by saying that playing good poker is a matter of "balance". I really like that statement. I know folks who are good at player reads but not at numbers and vice versa. Then there's all the other factors to consider (he says "weigh all the factors"). I like that idea and I agree that a good poker player is one who can tie everything together.

It will take me awhile before I can really tie all the elements together quickly during a game and what makes it a little more difficult is the fact that you see your hole cards before you have a chance to evaluate the elements properly, as a good holding could cloud your judgment a bit as to make the proper move IMO.
Overall though, I may try to put these elements into practice by placing a piece of paper over the position where my hole cards will be and reveal them when I have weighed out all the first ten elements.

One of the most important points for me from these initial sections is actually a single line from the Introduction: that there are no trivial hands in NLHE.

I'm certainly guilty of thinking the opposite from time to time, and it can be disastrous. The script usually goes a little like this:

"Right... I'm in the cutoff, it's been folded to me and I have... actually, it doesn't matter what I have - raise it three or four big blinds. Big blind calls, checks the flop, I c-bet, totally standard, I love easy money, he shoves... hey, where did quarter of my stack just go?!? And WTF am I doing making a decision for the rest of my chips with queen-high no draw?!?"

That's when I have to remind myself that trying to steal from LAGs who defend their blinds really isn't a trivial matter. I ought to be playing every hand smart, like it matters. And if I genuinely don't care about the outcome... what am I doing putting my money on the line?!?

I thought Harrington makes some great points about what we should actually be paying attention to in the "What is a hand?" / "Elements of a hand" section too - in fact, I often find myself wishing more people had read it before they venture into the HA section here. Remember it's not just about you and your cards - always be thinking about the situation, how your oppoents have been playing, how big their stacks are, how big the blinds are, etc.

Thought the sample hand summed up that section really well and demonstrated how to put the analysis tools into use. (There's lots, lots more like that to come BTW Daks).

I think the book is excellent, well NO actually I believe the ENTIRE series is... I haven't read his cash games book yet, Super System and some teaching that I received from Gus Hansen have also been most helpful. Dan's book confirmed and added to my education about playing a hand.

Part 1 of his book is very good and I agree that his dissecting and analysis of what a hand is and what the four factors is FOR me ... the Truest Definition.

Thanks for jumping in! This discussion will eventually cover the entire book - feel free to folow through with us. I suspect it will get deep later on.

Get DEEP later on?? It's ALREADY pretty deep for me! I dunno how much input I'll be able to give on HoH, it's already begining to frustrate me! I mean, I only had a 3.0 accum in college, and THAT took alot of studying! BUT, I'll TRY to give some positive input when I can.

I am hoping this discussion will help those of us who might be overwelmed by it all on our own.

I know that I for one feel a lot more confident knowing that if something comes up that I don't get I have a lot of friends here who are willing to help me understand it. I am not going to be afraid to say I am stuck - because it will not help me to move on if I don't get it as I go.

I actually sat down and read HOH vol.1 for about an hour at the local bookstore the other morning (it's sad, but I use my local Barnes and Nobles as a regular library for my poker education) - I have read the whole series, but I repeatedly need a review... sad, but that's what I really do. Harrington's skills as a mathematician, lawyer and his experiences with all of the fine players he had the experiencing of playing against at the Mayfair Club make his book a cut above...

This is an excellent idea... I've trained myself not to look at my cards right away, but look around and assess things first, watch the betting as it comes to me, and THEN look at my cards... it slows my reactions down a bit, but I've taken time to absorb position, who is tight, loose, short stacked etc. before I make my decision. All the elements that go into decisions are nicely summed up here in the book -- and they all follow you through the series.

I'm into Vol. II now and I can say that HOH sums up, and reinforces, everything I have read previously. His writing style is very engaging and draws the reader in -- not like Sklansky, for example.

Another thing I like about him is his background is in chess and backgammon, not poker. So he is bringing a well-rounded type of thinking analysis to the game, not just based on holdem.

BTW: HEY SPOOK!! Welcome aboard!

Actually shinedown's idea about covering his cards is an interesting one... I admire his creativity, BUT - I feel that if you want to develop quick reading abilities under pressure about possible hands, you need to play, play, play and practice this discipline while you are playing - so my suggestion is playchip games - actually I recommend this to everyone of you.

Anytime, I need to educate myself or develop a weakness of mine that I notice in my game - or I want to try a new poker strategy or theory, I will take it to the playchip world and practice, practice, practice... raising strategies, Dan's mathematical approach, Gus Hansen's theory... Hellmuth, Brunson... all of these I have applied and played in playchip land. A lot of poker players do - there a number of Full Tilt Pros who are in the playchip games and if you ask them why it's the same reason I have - practice and development... It's good training for handling bad players too, if you can win consistently with a strategy there then you can play it in real money (I believe, but then if you fail and need further development I would go back and work it out back in playchip world..)

Just a thought... Personally some of Harrington's theories don't always work super well for me in certain games with different players style... I'll try to describe that later - I still think he has spelled out the Science of Poker better then anyone else who's published a book though...

The idea of covering your hole cards with something is an interesting idea. It might just be worth a spin. Way to think outside of the box.

I really enjoyed the What is a Hand? dialogue. All of those elements mentioned are key to making smart decisions. As much as I try I tend to overlook at least one of them. Oh well, its something to work on.

The amount of information required for every hand seems daunting but let's break it down into smaller easier to handle nuggets.

1. The structure of the tournament never changes in regards to how often blinds go up, how many get paid out, etc... so need to worry about that after it starts.

The status of the tournament doesn't change rapidly, so knowing where you are relative to the money bubble is good but not something you need to look at every hand.

2. How many players at your table? Again, in most large field tournament, its always going to be a full table or close to it. no need to worry until you get down to 3 tables or less. (One exception, lots of sitouts at your table, then you need to look at how many ACTIVE players are at the table)

There's two out of the 11 we don't need to think about EVERY hand.

3. who are the players at your table. This is something that is constantly changing and needing updating and where notes are so helpful. This also ties into #5, as the shorter the stacks, the more aggressive they should become.

I like the comment about playing opposite to the way the rest of the table is playing.

What makes it difficult about playing the opposite of the table at times is if the table is balanced with both conservative and aggressive players.

HOH Vol.1 is a great book for players wanting to gain a better base to work from. I'll usually just figure it's a given that my opponents are abreast of the stuff covered in this book. Although not a beginner book by any means, it really doesn't get too involved with any advanced stuff but I would recommend it highly to anyone wanting to get more serious about the game (yes I own it and yes i've read it cover-to-cover 4 times). HOH Vol.2 is a great book and can help many to take their tourney playing to the next notch and Vol.3 is also an excellent book and often gets disregarded by many.
It'll be interesting to follow along with this section here on Cardschat and will attempt to offer my two cents worth along the way for what it's worth.

I know this is only the first section, but as it goes forward I hope people stick to the topic a little more than just saying how much they liked the whole book. I've read all 5 more than once but it's nice to stay focussed so we can get different perspectives.


Good idea for developing the habit, Shine. Have the list printed out or in a text document in the corner of your screen. There's also various little programs you can get that will put something overtop of any part of your screen; search "always on top" or something like that. I've used the program to play SnGs without looking at the cards at all.

The more I multi table ring games the more I autofold based on cards/position alone. That's not a bad thing, but it means that I'm probably forgetting to consider these other aspects even when I'm in a tournament.

Quick random comment:

Looking at some of the usual thread that keep cropping up in the HA forums (stuff like "i had AK one guy raised someone else reraised SHOULD I GO ALLIN"), the short "What is a Hand?" section should be made mandatory reading for anyone wanting to post on any poker forum imo.

The exercises, to me, are his way of making the reader think like a poker player. Answer the questions, what would you do? why? and why not? The text is very good for tournaments. I think Harrington realized that this book was not for the ring player and that is why he came out with the recent cash books. But for tourneys I have not seen a better book. I agree with the previous post on What makes a Hand. I think all the chat rats should read it before they call everyone that beats them a donk.

I think that this book is going to be a tremendous help. I think I got the most out of the sample hand. It's great to see a list of things you're supposed to consider but even better to see how to use it from each player's perspective.

I have to admit that I did this a long time ago when I first started and noticed that I was making snap judgements based solely on my hand. I used a sticky that was easily stuck on and removed from the screen.

With regard to hand values -- taking into account all the elements required for a decision, particularly in end game play where you are short stacked or near to it, your cards are often the least important factor. Position, pot size, relative stacks and player styles are most important. It is quite possible to play using these factors, without looking at your cards at all. Even postflop play can be handled by playing the board, not your cards.
So Harrington's point about your cards not always being a big factor is correct (of course).
The importance of your cards themselves is 'up there' when the tourney starts, and in middle stages, but is reduced to almost zero with a short stack in the end game.

There was a pro recently who went deep (or finished final table) without looking at their cards once. I seem to recall it was a woman -- does anyone know who that was?

The player was Annette_15 (Annette Oberstad .. sp?) and I believe it was while playing a $10 mtt online. She's also the woman who won the WSOP Europe event.

She took 1st place!

She won, but I think the buyin might have been less. 180 player, she says she looked at her cards once.

I suspect she's played this way more than once, but posted the hand history because she happened to win this one. I think it's available to watch via replayer on Pocket Fives.

I dont really get what Harrington is saying about play the opposite syle as your opponents. I mean it makes perfect sence but then in this case you opponent would be playing the opposite style as you so both people benefit so it does not seem to me like it helps one person a lot.

He is talking about the table in general and not just one player. If the over all image of a table is tight, then play more aggressive and vice versa.

I thought this part of the book was pretty basic, but the talk about the different styles was decent.

(or are we discussing that part next time?)

'Sense' is the word you mean.
Many times your opponents will not be aware of how they are playing, or what style they exhibit. In this case, take advantage.

Damn, I really wanted to get this book so I could participate! Oh well, maybe next week.

I hope I'm not to late to ask, but I,d like to know-------on 'Pot Odds' he's talking about how it works in limit hold 'em, which is easy to understand, but when it comes to no-limit, I understand what he's saying, but what do you do when you come across a player and your bet is correct, you can control the pot odds the way he says in the book, but going up against somebody who knows NOTHING about what pot odds are all about, aren't his chances of beating you just bt luck really pretty good? I mean, he doesn't know that he shouldn't even be in the hand (chasing the flush with 4-1 against catching)--he's gonna call no matter what you do. How is it possable, then, to control the uncontrollable?? Phew! It really IS easier to play against players who KNOW how to play!