Hitting 2 pair in unraised multiway pot...damn these are hard to play

#1 4th January 2010, 6:55 AM

So a few days ago, my fellow cardchat members helped me come to the conclusion that it is best to check top pair strong kicker in an unraised multiway pot. Now lets change that to two pair and use the following hand as an example.

Stage #1834518602: Holdem No Limit $0.50 - 2010-01-04 00:33:05 (ET)
Table: DEY ST (Real Money) Seat #6 is the dealer
Seat 6 - FFULLTILT ($35.40 in chips)
Seat 7 - NIKONDUDE ($29.50 in chips)
Seat 8 - GOODNTIGHT ($18.22 in chips)
Seat 9 - SKEETER3335 ($67.81 in chips)
Seat 1 - GLAZEPUP ($11.25 in chips)
Seat 2 - ROSSELL412 ($42.10 in chips)
Seat 3 - NYC_ALL_IN ($16.75 in chips)
Seat 4 - BLIEVE ($50 in chips)
Seat 5 - MAGELA_ ($10 in chips)
NIKONDUDE - Posts small blind $0.25
GOODNTIGHT - Posts big blind $0.50
MAGELA_ - Posts $0.50
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to BLIEVE [6c 5c]
SKEETER3335 - Calls $0.50
GLAZEPUP - Folds
ROSSELL412 - Folds
NYC_ALL_IN - Calls $0.50
BLIEVE - Calls $0.50
Two EP callers I can tag along here.
MAGELA_ - Checks
FFULLTILT - Folds
NIKONDUDE - Calls $0.25
GOODNTIGHT - Checks
Just as I hoped, 6 to the flop.
*** FLOP *** [Js 5h 6d]
NIKONDUDE - Checks
GOODNTIGHT - Checks
SKEETER3335 - Checks
NYC_ALL_IN - Checks
Ok so I hit 2 pair...now what??? 4 checks...(At this point I realized I had NO IDEA what I wanted to do) Not exactly a way ahead way behind situation yet since there is a low straight draw in villains ranges...do I want to value bet?
BLIEVE - Checks
MAGELA_ - Checks
*** TURN *** [Js 5h 6d] 2♠
At this point I would term this to be a WA/WB situation, if you dont have a set, a straight or a higher 2 pair then I am way ahead.
NIKONDUDE - Checks
GOODNTIGHT - Bets $3
Pot sized bet should I raise or call?
SKEETER3335 - Folds
NYC_ALL_IN - Folds
BLIEVE - Calls $3
I am not sure a raise does me any good as it will fold out any hands worse than mine and generate calls/raises from 2 pairs or up. Experts do you agree with this move?
MAGELA_ - Folds
NIKONDUDE - Folds
*** RIVER *** [Js 5h 6d 2s] 9♦
GOODNTIGHT - Bets $4
A weak river bet...I can easily rule out JJ 55 and 66 from his hand. A higher 2 pair is possible, a set of 22 or 99 unlikely. He probably is not putting me on a draw and more on a made hand based on my turn call but once again I am hesitant to raise.
BLIEVE - Calls $4
*** SHOW DOWN ***
GOODNTIGHT - Shows [Kc 6h] (One pair, sixes)
BLIEVE - Shows [6c 5c] (Two Pair, sixes and fives)
BLIEVE Collects $15.65 from main pot

Id like to know from the more experienced members, when you hit a flop like this, what is your goal in this hand? I believe check calling like I did would only work with fish that are stabbing at the pot. So the way this would be played in 50NL is probably very different in 200 or even 100NL.

#2 4th January 2010, 7:19 AM

I'm not that comfortable/familiar w FR dynamics, but I'm shocked nobody raised pf at a 50nl table - in the HJ, I vastly prefer raising rather than tagging along pf w 65s, partly cuz a competent BTN will raise here w a wide range (65s doesn't play well oop) and partly cuz I doubt CO is competent (he posts early, usually but not always a sign of fishiness), so I think I can buy position or buy the pot.

In limped pots, it's important to take stabs at pots w reasonable hands, esp in position. Bottom two is a strong but vulnerable hand and best played fast initially, it's easier to get counterfeited than you may think. So yes, as a default play 90%+ I'm betting the flop - sd's may call and top pair will probably call, we'll prob get raised by sets and top two (it'd be unusual in a limped pot for someone to show up w an overpair here).

If BB calls the flop, he'll probably check the turn, in which case I'd bet again - it'd be a brave soul to have limped pf w 43.

#3 4th January 2010, 7:38 AM

Like, you know, I limp suited connectors so if I make a monster I can check or call every street and win the minimum.

#4 4th January 2010, 1:09 PM

No question you need to bet the flop. 5 other players and a draw on the board. You don't let that many players draw.
Pot size bet because of the number of players (I would suggest the same bet size for any hand you thought was worth betting in such a multiway pot).

Turn, 2s, lucky you. That's as blank as they come.
Bet, raise.
You've got the best hand, you know this. There are that many players in this pot that someone has something, even the turn card put another draw out there, raise, you can get value out of this hand if you bet it.
It's not WA/WB, there are two draws out there which anyone who hit them should be betting because this pot is begging to be claimed. You're probably not up against AJ here (no flop bet) but weaker jacks are betting too, even A6 is probably thinking he might have the best hand. You're way ahead and almost never behind.
I'm not an expert but your hand does not look like two pair, it doesn't even look like TPTK. If you raise it looks like you've got a weak hand that's trying to take the pot.

River, I can understand not raising because it did complete the 78 draw, but I think against most opponents this is still a raise. He's either got a busted draw and folds, a hand like KJ, A6 or a pocket pair 77, 88, TT and calls or has two pair or better and raises. If he raises any more than a min raise it's probably a fold but I'd still be calling a weak raise here just because I cheated and looked at the results and saw he had K6 which means he's the type of player I'll look up when it's cheap, expecting him to make bad raises occasionally (whether he's bluffing or thinks it's for value).

#5 4th January 2010, 2:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thepokerkid123;1376119[COLOR="Red"

]No question you need to bet the flop. 5 other players and a draw on the board. You don't let that many players draw.[/color]
*^^^This, Exactly!!!
Pot size bet because of the number of players (I would suggest the same bet size for any hand you thought was worth betting in such a multiway pot).
*^^I would prefer 3/4 size pot in hopes of making some money but doing it through isolation. Betting the pot will probably make most people fold. If this happens you're losing out on ev.
Turn, 2s, lucky you. That's as blank as they come.
Bet, raise.
You've got the best hand, you know this. There are that many players in this pot that someone has something, even the turn card put another draw out there, raise, you can get value out of this hand if you bet it.
It's not WA/WB, there are two draws out there which anyone who hit them should be betting because this pot is begging to be claimed. You're probably not up against AJ here (no flop bet) but weaker jacks are betting too, even A6 is probably thinking he might have the best hand. You're way ahead and almost never behind.
I'm not an expert but your hand does not look like two pair, it doesn't even look like TPTK. If you raise it looks like you've got a weak hand that's trying to take the pot.

River, I can understand not raising because it did complete the 78 draw, but I think against most opponents this is still a raise. He's either got a busted draw and folds, a hand like KJ, A6 or a pocket pair 77, 88, TT and calls or has two pair or better and raises. If he raises any more than a min raise it's probably a fold but I'd still be calling a weak raise here just because I cheated and looked at the results and saw he had K6 which means he's the type of player I'll look up when it's cheap, expecting him to make bad raises occasionally (whether he's bluffing or thinks it's for value).

*Because of the way you played this (very weak and -ev), I would not reraise the river.

#6 4th January 2010, 3:42 PM

Just ****ing BET!

From now on when you have a decision that you think is close (this one is not) to bet or not, just bet. Also the hand you linked with TP in limped pot, just bet. Also when you get a free pass in the BB and the flop comes 663, just bet (doesn't matter what you hold).

#7 4th January 2010, 5:09 PM

With a couple limpers, you played with decent pot odds and hoped for a favorable flop.

You hit 2 pair on the flop. Checking here is maybe more sophisticated play that I just don't understand.

#8 4th January 2010, 10:45 PM

I agree with the whole crowd. Bottom two is very hard to hold up, ESPECIALLY when you're connecting. Bet here.

I would have raised pre from that position.

#9 5th January 2010, 12:03 AM

BAD CHECK! I love the call preflop, I do it all the time. But once the flop hits, you have to eliminate the implied odds (get people and their chips out of the hand) for other players and make them pay to see the flop. There is a large chance someone has 78 or KJ, don't check and let them see the next card to beat you. Bet a decent amount out, pot or so, and get the junk out of the way so you can pull chips from the person who gets too attached to their draw or top pair - but make sure to back down if a 9 or 4 hits, and of course the fatal second jack

#10 5th January 2010, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slycbnew

I'm not that comfortable/familiar w FR dynamics, but I'm shocked nobody raised pf at a 50nl table - in the HJ, I vastly prefer raising rather than tagging along pf w 65s, partly cuz a competent BTN will raise here w a wide range (65s doesn't play well oop) and partly cuz I doubt CO is competent (he posts early, usually but not always a sign of fishiness), so I think I can buy position or buy the pot.

I think you mean villain instead of CO here

In limped pots, it's important to take stabs at pots w reasonable hands, esp in position. Bottom two is a strong but vulnerable hand and best played fast initially, it's easier to get counterfeited than you may think. So yes, as a default play 90%+ I'm betting the flop - sd's may call and top pair will probably call, we'll prob get raised by sets and top two (it'd be unusual in a limped pot for someone to show up w an overpair here).

Well said. Point taken.

If BB calls the flop, he'll probably check the turn, in which case I'd bet again - it'd be a brave soul to have limped pf w 43.
In that case I have seen very brave souls

Quote:

Originally Posted by c9h13no3

Like, you know, I limp suited connectors so if I make a monster I can check or call every street and win the minimum.

Ehh I say two pair is more of a gentle giant than a monster and if I had a monster, flop was 566. You damn straight I am checking the flop

Quote:

Originally Posted by thepokerkid123

No question you need to bet the flop. 5 other players and a draw on the board. You don't let that many players draw.
Pot size bet because of the number of players (I would suggest the same bet size for any hand you thought was worth betting in such a multiway pot).

So essentially value bet and field for callers. I wasn't thinking this way because I definitely would not call anything more than a minibet if I did not have 2 pair or a nut draw. Since there are fish in this pot, it would make sense to value bet but I would be very hesitant to try this if there were better players.

Turn, 2s, lucky you. That's as blank as they come.
Bet, raise.
You've got the best hand, you know this. There are that many players in this pot that someone has something, even the turn card put another draw out there, raise, you can get value out of this hand if you bet it.
It's not WA/WB, there are two draws out there which anyone who hit them should be betting because this pot is begging to be claimed.

Well with the bet by villain after the turn, I believe anyone who is on a draw would fold at this point so it should be a WA/WB.

You're probably not up against AJ here (no flop bet) but weaker jacks are betting too, even A6 is probably thinking he might have the best hand. You're way ahead and almost never behind.
I'm not an expert but your hand does not look like two pair, it doesn't even look like TPTK. If you raise it looks like you've got a weak hand that's trying to take the pot.

Hm I beg to differ. If I open pot sized bet and someone behind me raised at the turn, I would put that person on a very strong hand.

River, I can understand not raising because it did complete the 78 draw, but I think against most opponents this is still a raise. He's either got a busted draw and folds, a hand like KJ, A6 or a pocket pair 77, 88, TT and calls or has two pair or better and raises. If he raises any more than a min raise it's probably a fold but I'd still be calling a weak raise here just because I cheated and looked at the results and saw he had K6 which means he's the type of player I'll look up when it's cheap, expecting him to make bad raises occasionally (whether he's bluffing or thinks it's for value).

Well overall I played this hand poorly starting with the flop so there is no need to analyze the turn and river. Is check raising a reasonable option on the flop? That definitely crossed my mind as well. But as it goes, most of you believe a standard to pot sized bet is warranted on the flop.

#11 5th January 2010, 12:37 AM

I did mean CO, not Villain. We don't have position on the flop because we allowed CO, who posted early, to stay in the hand by not raising pf. We're obv allowing everyone to see a cheap flop by not raising, but we really want position w small sc's.

You can't count on CO betting the flop in order to allow Hero to c/r - CO almost certainly has a hand he can't bet, he didn't choose to play this hand, he posted early.

You can't be afraid of 43 being in someone's hand. Make the turn the 9s instead, it'd be much more likely for a straight to be made, and I'm still betting out.

#12 5th January 2010, 7:33 AM

I figured him for weak jack or better two pair as well but now that i think about it, two pair was a stretch as he raised so large on the turn with seemingly weak-hitting opponents... it screams that hes trying to steal (I dont see these things until after the showdown you see, if i could see the future i would be the greatest poker player alive... )

#13 5th January 2010, 10:48 AM

It's not WA/WB, there are a ton of draws in his range.

The flop was checked and the turn created a lot of draws, this has the result that the only big hands are slowplayed monsters and there are a ton of smaller hands that now look to be good.

You slow played, it doesn't mean that everyone else checking is slow playing too. Your opponents are more likely to have a weaker hand than two pair here.

Betting and raising will represent the strength of your hand, typically that's what you've got to do with a big hand, you get away with it by either doing it against bad players or balancing your range with bluffs against good players. You have the best hand now and you want chips in now.

This board, particularly on the turn, is a great spot to maximise value. This should be undeniable.

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