Harrington on Holdem: The Workbook

Hey Guys and Girls, Tiger sharks and Great Whites,

I just finished reading HoH Tournament strategy guide, book 2 (yes, I’m new to poker… wipe that smirk off your face). I am about to begin working through the workbook which is the third book in the series.

Are there any other new players who would like to join me as I work through the book? We can post our thoughts and ideas about the strategies and concepts he talks about in the book — 1 problem at a time. The more perspectives we have the more I believe we will grow as poker players. I also think this chat will give us insight into other peoples thoughts about the game. Napoleon Hill talked about the master mind principle, where great minds grow even faster as they share their ideas.

CC regulars and Pros who have already integrated these concepts and strategies and most probably evolved beyond them, would you like to share your new insights and thoughts regarding this book. I think all the newbies would appreciate any advice you give, especially when it differs and thus adds to our repertoire of skills and techniques.

The normal strategy posts are way beyond my thinking when it comes to topics on Poker Tracker and such. I read them but dare not post. Save myself the embarrassment.

Hopefully this will be an easy to understand but enlightening thread for new players and perhaps seasoned pros alike.

I’m off to read the introduction and first problem and I will return tomorrow with my thoughts. Hopefully I can enjoy this adventure with at least a handful of CC readers.

Lata.

I may be too far behind you in this but I just started reading this series. I've been skimming through the early parts of book 1 as it's pretty basic stuff. I'd love to check back in to your thread later on though as I get deeper into the books. Good Luck!

Not saying anything against Harrington on Holdem as I think they are great books, but if you are newer to poker, then I think that they may be a bit too advanced for you. You should really start with something geared more towards the beginner(and no I'm not talking about beginner as in what the hand rankings are). You should be learning how to do some of the basic math when it comes to poker before you learn all of the advanced concepts in HoH. I would suggest John Vorhaus' "Killer Poker By The Numbers" for the math, it breaks it down into very easy concepts of doing the math fast and easy so you can figure out if you are making the right decision before you try to make that Rope-A-Dope, lol.

Another good book for beginners is Phil Gordons books(Little Green, Little Black). Those would also be good choices before HoH. I hope you'll take my advice, because otherwise, you are basically learning how to do calculus before knowing how to multiply... and you just won't be able to implement those concepts accurately without having the prior knowledge.

First off.. wanted to comment on this ^^^
YES Phil Gordon's books are a great place to get started (both Little Green & Little Blue books).
NO, I don't think HOH series is too advanced. Personally I think it is fairly basic but for sure would give one an excellent grounding from which to work from.
I've read HOH cover-to-cover at least 4 times Vol.1, 5times+ Vol.2 and a couple times Vol.3 (including marking down all answers & reviewing afterwards).
My experience has been (and am sure is shared by many other MTT players) the HOH series was a great grounding for MTT play. As you progress though I think you'll actually find yourself debating quite a few of Action Dan's stuff (ie. first couple of times I read it, was still absorbing more...reading them a year later (esp. Vol.3) I found myself debating some of Dan's choices for how certain hands were suggested to be played... still great stuff for the thought process & learning how to perfect/tweak (or develop) one's own game.
No doubt that two minds are better than one. Around a year ago I was hooked up with a small group of eager, up & coming online players but unfortunately the group broke apart as players went their own separate ways. Hooking up with others to share thoughts on handhistories, etc. or to debate sections of a book,etc. is a great way to improve upon one's game for sure!!! Over the past while I've actually been looking to hook up with some others again as I found this experience to be invaluable.

I'll try to add comments to your post here. I don't own a copy of Vol.3 (used to just loan it from the Library) but will try to add my thoughts on any sections you decide to post.
Good idea btw. imo HOH series is a must to help an aspiring MTT player to build a foundation for tournament play. Reading/studying it will put you ahead of the game. GL on your journey.

I'm not interested myself as I am a cash game player.

I'm just posting to say that this is a good idea and you will benefit greatly if you can get a small study group going.

Thanks for your input guys. All input and challenge is welcome. I did read a couple of basic books before stumbling onto the HoH series, so I have some basic understanding of a little math. So let me share with you the books that I have read before I decided to start reading HoH and playing cash MTT.

These books weren’t studied they were just read through once, or twice for some sections.

Phil Gordon: Little Green Book
Doyle Brunson 1 and 2
Poker for dummies by Lou Krieger
Sklansky: theory of poker
Sklansky: tournament poker for advanced players
Championship, no limit holdem by T.J Cloutier and McEvoy

And then I dove into the HoH series which I felt was a better read than most of the others. But because I am still new to the game most of the concepts go in one ear and out the other until I make an effort to practice them one by one.

So now you can see what my first thoughts on the game would be. I think that the first couple of books you read will shape the way that you play the game. I’m still in the baby stages but I feel like I started with some good books with a solid foundation behind them. I’ve also only been playing for about 8 months so I am lacking in a lot of table experience.

However, I feel like I am ready to dive into the workbook of Harrington. And any piece of information you have concerning any post is welcome.

Sad note: just got knocked out a tourney with 3500 players at 300th position. The Blinds were 300 and 600. I was in cutoff pos holding KK with 8K chips. Two early limpers and the table was known to be calling allins preflop. I shoved allin and got one caller with 99 who caught a 9 on the flop (which makes me happy because poker is about the long run).

So tomorrow I will start with HoH workbook.

Hi

I did also start with Harrington's tournament series, I thought they were great at the time it's 2 - 3 years ago, and they give a good fundament for tournament games, In your book selection I noticed that your listing is mostly "Old school" players, that is a good way to start, but you should consider some of the New players too.

What I usally do is try pick up the writers basic style/ideas and then take those in as weapons, so I can mix up my game and has a big as possible arsenal of different weapons.

As I have the books I would like to comment as far as my time allows, as "Poker Orifice" I have been looking for some other players to "work" with, however I think you have to be on or close to the same "poker" thinking level, as there is so many ways a hand can be played acording to so many different views, and when reading hands you don't get the full informations from HH, It's often the small things that counts.

I have this book and while it is great, I would hardly suggest that someone begin their poker reading with this. I would say that the average beginner is going to look at this and shudder. The book does a great job of explaining what the math in poker is and what the numbers mean but it seems like the kind of book that is too easily skimmed through and not comprehended. This book is a mental workout to truly grasp and should be read by someone further into their poker career imo.

I have not read the HOH books except for the first HOH for cash. But, I agree with Stu, great idea you have going here Michael!!!

First off I'm not too sure about copywrite laws so I might seem a little vague about what was actually written in the book. If you could get hold of a copy that would be really cool. I dont feel like being arrressted for sharing my thoughts on his book. (sweet).

The first problem for me was really a problem concerning a few of the fundamental concepts in HoH 1.

What style of play am I going to adopt? Am I going to play a conservative game or am I going to be more aggressive and gather some chips early on?

I think he makes a good point that at the early stages of the tourney its better just to play solid hand values while you observe the tendencies and betting patterns of the players at the table. Once I have an idea about how the other players are going to play then maybe I can adapt to the table itself and play in the opposite style to that of the others. If they are playing tight I will be a little bit more flexible with his starting hands requirements.
However, I still don’t think I would be playing 8 T in 4th position (maybe if it was suited and the blinds were worth the effort). If I did play 8 T I would follow the advice of Chris Ferguson and bring it in for a 2.5 BB raise. And this is where I differ form HoH because he likes to limp with weak or marginal hands. I don’t like to do that because then I’m offering the blinds a free flop to beat me with a random hand even worse than mine.

He makes a good point about not being too sure if you will see a cheap flop with 5 players still to act behind you. And this point reminded me of something I read or heard a while ago about having a contingency plan. What will I do if—the button raises; I flop middle pair. Etc. I like the advice that before you act you might want to have an idea of your next action, kind of like chess. How much am I willing to spend before I give up on a weak holding?

He pointed out something that I have noticed as well: When I double up in the early stages of a tournament I want to have a big double up. Lets say from starting at 3K chips, after half an hour I want to double up to around 5.8K or over 6K. If I have been messing around and losing with weak hands, I might only get to around 4K (not cool).

And he wrote something for the pros out here: if you think it will be a positive-equity play (positive return on your investment of chips) then it is fine to play these kinds of hands. For the pros because you can understand the table vibe better and will know when it is O.K. to play these kinds of hands OP.

And finally, to sum up what I learnt in this problem: at the beginning of tourneys just play straightforward poker with solid hand values until you have a good read on your opponents and their styles of play.

Feel free to challenge everything I’ve said. Even one idea from anybody is more than welcome. Let me know what you think.

Don't worry too much about copyright.

There is a policy of fair use.

This means that its fine to quote a few sentences or a paragraph or two as long as it has relevence to your post and does not form a large percentage of the overall work you are quoting from.

So a quoting a paragraph and asking questions about it is fine.

Here is a details explaination of fair use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_us...substantiality

By the way Velutha and absoluthamm, I had a look at that “Poker by the Numbers” and I instantly wanted to get it. Looks like a great read, especially since I think I’m pretty good at math. The next tourney that I cash big in first, second, or third will have 75% going toward a bankroll and the other toward poker education of which that book will be a definite along with the Full Tilt Tourney strategy guide and Jon Turners tourney book.
Thanks for that info, I didn’t even realize there was a series of killer poker books out there.

Thanks for your advice Stu. I had a look at that link and boy was it a heavy read. My eyes hurt after reading that law stuff, but it cleared up a lot of my uncertainty around what I could write, quote, or paraphrase. Thnx mate.

I think I phrased my last post wrong. I don't think this book is the book that a beginner should start out with, but I think it is a book that poker players should read before they start reading about advanced concepts and plays, just so that they know how to quickly calculate the right things before they make those plays. Because really, who cares if you know how to pull some of those plays off if you're doing it at the completely wrong time when it comes to things like pot odds, implied odds and the odds of hitting your hand? All of which a book like this will teach you how to calculate fairly quickly. I agree with you 100% that if I true beginner picked up this book, it would not help him/her at all because they just need to learn the basics, not all of the complicated math, but if you are trying to step your game up to the next level, you need to understand the math of poker... Also, like you said, the book is a mental workout...it isn't the type of book that you can just skim through or read while doing other things...it is strongly suggested that you read it like you are studying, pencil and paper in hand working the problems out as they come up in the book(which is hard for a lot of people to do), which I think is great and really made the math stick in my head.


It really is a great read and I think, from what it sounds like, it would help you out a lot, just be ready to work your way through it, lol. One suggestion on the Full Tilt Strategy Guide....it's a good book, but it covers all different variants of poker(like Razz, Omaha variants, Stud variants, Limit and Pot-Limit), which isn't bad for someone who wants to learn all of the other games that you can play, but it doesn't go into the depth that other books do. I would say it might be a good idea to leave this one for down the road a little bit when you have gotten a good grasp on your main game(Holdem in this case), and then when you are ready to expand your game repetoire, then go back and pick up some books like this. Hope this is all helping you. Good luck

As a new player I don’t mind seeing a flop with a relatively strong hand like AQs, in position--CO. I want to improve my post flop play and you can’t improve by shoving allin against two early limpers, especially when you still have close to 50BB.

I would, however, make the 240 raise which Harrington says would be his second choice. Why? I’m in position with a nice hand and I want to narrow down the possible hands that those two early limpers have. If I raise I think I can accomplish that.

If the table is as weak and loose as he suggests then that early limper with AA is gonna give his hand away and shove allin. It costs me 240 (cool). If he smooth calls and checks a flop which I miss as well, then I think a standard C bet of half the pot is gonna be the most I waste on the hand (losing 360 is much better than losing 2800).

Can I get away from a flop with an Ace or Queen on board is a different story altogether. This reminds me of a comment by Phil Gordon in his Green Book: don’t overvalue top pair. Two pair is the biggest winner in Holdem.

A simple thought comes to mind concerning this problem. If I am a big investor with a million dollars in the bank would I risk that million for 10 Grand? NO NO NO! Maybe if it was closer to 250K.

I’m gonna leave it at these two problems for the weekend. I will talk to myself about problem three on Monday.

I’ve decided to make it 2 or 3 problems a week because my thoughts are changing day to day as I read threads and posts on this site and others. So I know I’m gonna add or change some things.

As always your thoughts are more than welcome.
Lata, Michael.

Welcome to problem three. The value of ligical thinking when a girl is down to her underwear.

If a table has been really tight and has been folding around to the BB a couple times I would definitely raise with 89s in Hijack seat.

After reading Super System I also fell in love with suited connecters. In fact, I remember playing cash games at Bodog early this year and stacking two people with AA for $100 each with this hand.

With the small blind calling my preflop raise I have to start putting him on a hand. As the hand develops I can gather more information and narrow the range down.

First of all-the table has been tight, so he likes his hand enough to call a C bet. If the table has been weak then I like my hand when I make a pair on the turn. But the table has been tight so I thought he was trapping with a king. I didn’t go through the process Dan went through; I was willing to check the hand down. I know Dan says you can’t let a weaker hand draw out on you after making your hand. So it was good instruction from him to say you have to charge the hands that you are beating. I personally would have been willing to check the hand down. Not anymore.

When I make two pair on the river and he bets into me… I’m in trouble because I would have raised with my two pair. Dan went through the steps slowly and I can see in his solution why he would just call. Unfortunately I see two pair on a nice board and logic goes out the window (kind of like when I’m alone with a sexy girl-you know what I’m talking about).

Anyway, the lesson was invaluable: before taking any action--think through all the possibilities in a logical fashion. What hand can he have? Why did he do that? Then proceed with caution you young horny bastard.
Lata, Michael

Hey there, I just saw this thread and read thru all of it and thought it was great. I've been playing poker for over three years, I like to believe that i'm a good player. I've never read a poker book before, but planning on getting a few, i'm also good with math but haven't yet studied the math in poker. I would like someone to recommend a few books based on the math of poker.

Even thou I don't have the book your going thru, i'll still check up on some of the things on this thread. I think your doing great with these problem and solving them. When I first started I was a very loose aggresive player, but after watching a few videos I have become a pretty tight player. I normally play very tight thru out the whole tournament and steal the blinds on the button with marginal hands.

As we are talking books can anyone help me find the mett/sett books that were privately published early 2000. I understand that these are the secert weapon for the pro's. thanks

I never heard of the mett/sett book or of many other poker books, but it sounds interesting.

These books don't really have anything to do with poker firsthand, and absolutely nothing to do with online poker, but here is an explanation. First of all, I have never been able to find this in book form, only CD. But what METT/SETT stands for is MicroExpression Training Tools (METT) and Subtle Expression Training Tools (SETT). How you go through this training is basically by looking at a lot of pictures of faces and the different expressions that they make suring certain sequences of events(this can be used for lots of things...reading a poker player...helping law enforcement officials tell if someone is lying...). Once you become a pro at reading peoples faces, you will have an edge on them trying to read if they're bluffing and such. Here is a place that you can get the training tool... http://gottmancatalog.orderport.net/...ge.asp?id=1454

It is very advanced, so I'm not sure I would get this unless you have most of your other areas pretty much mastered, but this is a great tool for down the road.

METT/SETT never heard of it before... It sounds like something Daniel Goleman talked about in his book "Social Intelligence." He says people use this kind of technology at airports. They train to be able to spot the nervous ticks of criminals etc. Sounds useful for poker as well-if you play alot of live poker.

I'm glad you like some of the posts 5TR8 FLUSH. I think the book that absoluthamm mentioned for math is the one I'm gonna try (when I can). When I checked it out I was impressed.

Today I didn't feel like playing poker until I watched the SCOOP main event video from pokerstars... WOW those guys are good. Took some notes from those videos and felt inspired to play a couple MTT SnG's. I know I'm like 4 months late but those videos are really cool if anyone else doesn't know about them.

Lata, Michael

Stopping by to say hi. Problem 3 is a tough one. When I went through it originally I got a grand total of 2 points. I like the c-bet once the pre-flop raise was made, but I probably wouldn't have chosen the largest raise.

Wow, well said Rogue (XMen?). Those were my thoughts as well-I dont like to over bet preflop unless I want the pot to be big, and even then I still like the 2.5BB to 3BB.

Thanks for your input bud.

Little did I know Rogue was a comic book character. Thanks for letting me know -- I checked it out on Wikipedia.

Actually, I live in the Rogue Valley, part of Southern Oregon on the US West Coast. Everything around here is named Rogue this and Rogue that. The river that runs through our valley is called, guess what? The Rogue River! It's a good salmon and steelhead fishing river.

Yhanks for your help on mett/sett. I will order them and report to the forum.

rugby, how often do you play live? and how big do you play for? I wouldn't bother ordering those unless you play live fairly regularly and for a decent amount as well. Mainly because, they will not apply at all to an online player, and also because for someone that is playing lower stakes games, you probably need to work on other aspect of your game to sniff out your opponents such as betting patterns and hand movement. The poker player that should get something like this is the one who is playing against the people who have corrected their leaks in betting patterns and body movement, and they are looking for one last edge.

I'm NOT new to poker and I'm still reading everything I can get my hands on. Don't ever stop learning.

I read HOH a few months ago when i was just starting to play pokerand it helped me a lot.

I don't think you need o be an advenced player to understand the concepts of the book.

Super system for example it's a book for advanced players i think, i read it also a few months ago and i didn't knew what to do about it. I mean that i couldn't use the book to improve my game.

I think you should try to apply the concepts of HOH in your tournament play, the guy knows what he's talking about.

just came across this thread today. i would love to do this with you. my problem is i lent my book to someone. i vaguely remember some of the hands. hand1 i think SCs w/no implied odds and not sure you got position. fold. hand2 i'm a little foggy but think if you raise w/AQ you may only narrow the calls down to hands that beat you. and fold out hands that you got beat. eg you raise he will call or raise w/AK but may fold the hands you got beat AJ,AT. if i'm in position and likely to have it though out the hand i most likely call instead of raising. if i were in the blinds here i may try to take it down with a raise here if i saw the early position raiser fold before this. hand3 i didnt read though but i'll be calling my buddy to get that book back soon.

another great book dont know if its too advanced or not but "winning tournament one hand at a time vol.1" is by far the best tournament poker book made IMO. its lets you into the mind sets of 3 different on-line pros.

Thanks for the advice gents.

Cardplayer52 I like your straightforward answer to problem 1. Not sure you have postion with no implied odds on a below average hand, sounds like a fold to me too.

I like the advice about not raising the hands you have dominated in problem two (you definitely want those chaps to hang around). Sounds like a good reason to limp behind. One thing that really bugs me in MTT's is letting the blinds see a free flop with a random weak hand that ends up beating your above avreage hand that could even win without improving had the blinds not been involved.

Lata, Michael

hey guys I have hoh #3 on my puter if anyone needs I can probably send to ya in email if ur system can handle it just pm me I guess I downloaded from limewire checked for viruses its clean I use adobe 7 reader for it thats a free download

Google Mett/Sett

I've read the HoH books 1 & 2, at least 2 times, maybe more, and every time it is like I never read them before. And each time my game (and thus my BR) improves.

I forgot what pro said it, but whom ever I'm quoting "as players, we're always learning" hit the nail on the head.

HoH is very good stuff. Finishing up on Book 2 now. Will report back when I have Book 3 feedback to add...

Although maybe not, like you I rarely post for fear of embarrassment. =P

Bad news: played for 12 hours yesterday through till this morning. Went deep in all three of the tourneys I chose to play in BR allowing.

So irritated with myself-and I have a new found respect for those poker giants who can beat these big tourneys.

Daily Dollar rebuy: 4800 entrants was coming 60th until my JJ ran into an AQ and got knocked at 320th for $7.85. First place payed over $3K.

2 Dollar double stack tourney: 1200 Entrants got short stacked at the end and my AJs ran into AKs allin preflop. Came 23rd for $7.

And the real dissapointing one because I played better than I have ever played before: Was three betting from postion with KJ A8 and taking down early position raisers preflop. Daily Dollar: 11 200 entrants (huge) was coming 9th and like a royal dumbazz idiot I decided to defend my blind against the chip leader with a check raise on the flop and an allin on the turn. Got called by mid pair (YES I'M A DUMBAZZ). Eliminated in 51st postion for 15 dollars.

All my knowledge just flew out the window. To maintain focus and concentration and make quality decisions for 12 hours is hard.

Stupid poker and extremely pissed off with myself. Back to the books with no reward this weekend either.

Some great comments here.

Does anyone know how easy it is to get any of these books in the uk. I can't afford to buy them straight from shops but they certainly are hard to find in our libraries and you never see poker books at discount/charity shops or sales.