Hand ranges and stack sizes revisited

This was posted a while back by a member who's since left us but I think it's a subject worth revisiting, especially saying as how we haven't had a good new article or strategy thread in a while.

100nl full ring

An average tag (say 15/9/2) raises $3.5 under the gun.

Folded to you on the button.

What are your calling ranges with:

20bb effective stacks?
50bb " ?
100bb " ?
200bb " ?
500bb+ " ?

How about reraising ranges?

Assume SB and BB are both similar tags and have the same effective stacks.

Please give reasoning.

I hate playing short stacked, and 100bb's is so standard, so I'll skip right to playing deep stacked.

When things are this deep, almost every hand becomes read dependant. Against opponents who are afraid to 4-bet preflop, I'll 3-bet just about any hand I'm willing to play. Against opponents who play poorly postflop, I'm calling with just about any 2 cards 500 big blinds deep.

But just to get us in the ballpark:

Suited Connectors: 45s+
Suited 1 Gappers: 35s+
Some other small connectors like: 36s+, 78os+
All pocket pairs
Obviously, I'm 3-betting AK, QQ+. AQ & JJ aren't lookin' so hot from an UTG raiser, but I'd still probably play them.

I'm never calling/raising with KJ, KQ, QJ, AJ.

Basically, when stacks become this deep, I'm not in the business of making mediocre hands. I'm looking to play a hand with a lot of implied odds, and make my opponent make a huge mistake on the turn/river. I'm also looking to do a lot of floating, especially if I have a turn card which could bring me a lot of outs, or a disguised hand. Plus, I'm much more willing to bluff at a pot, since villain can get away from his hand easier.

^^^^

...well assume you've got a shortstack raising into your 100bb stack then

Okay fine

50bb's isn't all that short. We're still getting set odds on his 3.5xBB raise. However, play on later streets isn't nearly as important since his stack is much smaller. So we want to play hands that can make made hands on the flop, which will allow us to get our money in as a favorite.

Calling Range: AJ, KQ, KJ, QJ, maybe JTs. 99 and lower.
3-betting Range: AQ+, TT+

AJ, KJ, and QJos are somewhat marginal. If this is a good & solid TAG, his raising range UTG will be pretty small. Those hands that are often outkicked need to be played with some caution. But since we're in position, we can give it a shot.

The key here is that we no longer have a deep stack, so playing suited connectors is a lot harder. I usually want more than the 13:1 implied odds that he's giving us to play hands like 78s, and even if we flop a draw, we won't be able to win much when we hit it (since his stack is so short). It will also be a lot harder for us to semi-bluff with our draw, since it will be easier for our villain to commit himself on the flop.

Against a 20xBB stack, I'm just looking to put him all in preflop. We're not getting set odds, or odds on any of our other small connectors. Thus, I'm playing AQ+, and TT+. And I'm never just calling, I'm just putting them all in.

Answers in bold.

Bumpety

Well Chuck, your thoughts?

Heh, well everyone pretty much elaborated on it much more than I was going to. I don't have some huge revelation for you guys

20bb you're playing strictly for immediate hand value, ie big pairs, big broadway, and should very rarely be calling instead of raising.

50bb I disagree with calling with SCs and such - you actually need better implied odds to play these hands than pairs, which I do call with this stack size.

100bb is set mining territory, plus we can add in the suited connectors. I've been taking a hard look at my game recently and realizing I'm committing too much too often with small pairs in the 100bb area. Basically overvaluing my implied odds. I think calling a raise with position with a pair is an ideal spot to set mine, but we have to be careful calling 3-bets at this point.

I'd say 200bb is around where we really start to loosen our range, down to 34s, 97s etc. The combination of our position plus our good implied odds makes calling with a wider range essential. I don't think we can call any two remotely connected/suited cards at this point since unless villain's a maniac, he won't go broke postflop without a pretty big hand, and basically we're not getting those miracle situations often enough to make calling acceptable.

500bb is where I think we should really be broadening our range. I think it was cheetah who did a graph of the value of small pairs vs stack size, and assuming we're up against a sane player, we actually have to be careful of reverse implied odds when we're set mining. We won't necessarily want to get our stack in with bottom set if villain is willing, for example. I really have very little to no experience this deep so I couldn't say, but at the micros I'd say widening your range further is fine, but up against competent players I'd basically say tread carefully.

Link here (http://www.cardschat.com/f50/using-stack-sizes-value-our-starting-hands-98182/).

Also, didn't you have a thread where you posted part of an online conversation you had w TB regarding very deep stacks? I seem to remember 400bb being the spot where you would actually call w atc (?)... couldn't find it, however...

20bb: shove AA/KK/QQ/AKs/AKo
fold all else never call.
50bb: reraise AA/KK/QQ/AKs/AKo
call all pocket pairs TT and below AQs.
100bb: same as 50 except reraise with JJ/TT and posibly AQs/AJs depending on very specific reads.
200bb: reraise AA/KK/AKs/AKo
call all pocket pairs QQ and below A2s+/K9s+/Q8s+/45s+/J8s+/JTo/ATo/A2-A5o
500bb: same as 200 bb.

Please question me

i grunched this thread original ^^^(posted without reading the other replies)

400bb = atc is interesting, is there some calc that can be done to figure out how often we have to stck villian for it to be profitable?

Also chuck about treading carefully with 500bb, wouldnt this be reason to narrow down your re-raisng range so as to avoid big pots when you only have overpair or TP type hands?

also the deeper you get the more player/read specific your plays will become.