Getting out of AK pre flop

How many of you (I'm mainly playing, as far as cash goes, $25NL 6 Max) lay down AK pre flop to 3bets and 4bets? I just installed Hold Em Manager, and am having a go at the trial, and some of my biggest losing hands are AKo and AKs, granted I am winning 80% of the hands I play with them, but the times where I've put the chips in pre flop, and have lost to KK, AA, and QQ even clearly outweigh the other pots where I've grinded out flops etc.

From looking at HEM today (although it's taking a fair bit of getting used to!) It seems this is a big leak for me, nothing else atm is really catching my eye, and ironically enough, and I know it myself, I can and have folded QQ several times in cash games, for fear of KK, AA and being a flip vs AK, but in reality... it's not much different really, no? and I'm in profit with QQ, where with AK, I am not.

I think maybe seeing flops is bad aswell to a 3 bet, studying my game right now, I'm thinking I should be folding AK to serious aggression pre flop in cash games, which before today, I'm not sure I would have thought of!

Also, with HEM, when the trial runs out, what happens, will it stop importing hands, or will the software lock up completely, I would like to know if I can still look at my data after the 15 days, regardless of whether I shell out for it

Any thoughts kindly appreciated guys!

This is not an answer, but I just got stuffed with AKo. Opponent raised to 150 preflop. I bet pot and they went all in. I called and they had pocket 10's. 10,J,Q flopped, followed by a J and a K. They hit their full house and my straight disintegrated. It was the first hand of the CC freeroll. I wasn't as bummed as I could have been ($ game), but it still sucked.

Now what the hell am I going to do for the rest of the afternoon? Laundry definately sounds less appealing than playing in the freeroll...sigh.

Don't fold AK pre-flop unless you absolutely know your opponent has something like KK or AA. The only way you would fold is if the raiser is extremely tight.

See, the easy thing here to forget is that while you win with AK more than most other hands, you have some big losses as well. Unfortunately, as humans, we tend to remember the big hands we lose, and we tend to become more afraid and shell up. The truth is, over an extended period of time, you should be playing AK because it is a profitable hand. There are times to fold it, but they are rare and far between.

I would say you for sure do not have a large enough sample to draw the conclusions you are drawing. While over the long run you probably will be a loser when getting AK all in pre flop, it will still be a huge winner for you by staying aggressive with it. You have a ton of fold equity 3betting and 4 betting with AK and even when called you are not in terrible shape against most peoples ranges.

There are a lot of good posts regarding this that can expain it better than me and I will try to find one since there are about 5000 times more bad ones. This thread will get filled with bad beat stories and people telling you its a drawing hand blah blah blah, those people you notice are in freerolls and generally arent quite there yet as a poker player and any good player here will tell you that 90% of the time keeping the pressure on is a good idea.

Well, you are just playing As high!
Even 22 is a favorite against this hand.
And QQ is dominating many hands except KK and AA...
Also many people overplay AK.
If you got a good read just throw it away....

usually with AK i like to come in for a re raise.....and than if they shove....well its up to you if you wanna call or not haha

It happened again last night, but on a RIDICULOUSLY loose 10p/20p local cash game, pushed all in for villain to show KK, not comparing this to my online play, but still made me chuckle!

I think I'll stick to a re raise in position, and if I'm facing people going over the top from there, unless I really think they're restealing, I'm swaying towards laying it down, the only thing I'm beating by a margin is AQ > and I'm thinking even at 25NL there aren't too many players willing to get their chips in with weaker aces pre flop? How would you treat it in early position pre flop? I guess with the kind of aggression you're talking about, because you're gonna have to be 4betting (hope I'm getting these terms right, 4bet = hero raise, vs position re-raise, vs hero re-raise? in this instance?) unless you face a really tight player to see where you stand, by which point... it's too late and you have to pray you're up against QQ or lower?

I think AK all in pre flop is a flipping hand against the range of hands your facing, high pairs, and I think only a donk is gonna be in there with AQ >. Like I say 80% winning with AK I'm happy with my post flop play, but sure am not gonna be treating it like gold dust pre flop the way I had been, cheers guys

I would take a closer look at the hands you are loosing a lot of chips on. How is the play progressing? Are you allin preflop and just losing the coinflip or are you calling or betting off a lot as the hand progresses when you are behind? There is probably more to it than just folding or not folding preflop to aggression.

To play AK you need to have a read on your opponent, if he's aggressive jam the pot preflop, if he's tight and only raises premo, and he's reraising you UTG that you might be better off laying it down.

I personally raise and reraise AK, and hit or miss on the flop I still play it aggressive. When it does hit though, and the board texture is safe, I like to make only small bets into. It's a bit of a bugger to play sometimes though.

there are so many variables to consider in preflop play with any cards...use your standard raise(according to position) if you get reraised, you have to consider what you know about this player and how much cash or tournie chips they have behind them...if i am reraised i will generally see the flop at least and go from there...but i think the key point is that there is no general rule how to play AK at any given point...too many things to consider...i will say this in closing..AK with a missed flop..is , well, just AK

GL
WOOTER

the answer to what will happen to the hem is that when the trial is over it will not allow you to open the software at all....

Again, tons of better responses that will show mathematically why AK should almost always be a raise but I couldnt find any on my quick search and I dont feel like stoving these(I do suggest you do however its a great tool). There are about 200 AK hand threads a week but you seem to be legitimately interested and not complaining that 99 cracked your AK in the cc freeroll so here goes.

So basically you raise for fold equity. This is where most of your profits will come from with AK, and they should be plentiful. If you think the only time someone isnt folding to a 3bet is with QQ+ then you should be 3betting a lot more hands(any two cards) since they are folding 95% of the time to reraises. Since thats obviously not the case you simply cannot 3bet any two cards profitably against most players. AK is a great hand to do it with however since its not very likely you are dominated. I am not sure you debating 3betting with AK though so i wont go terribly in depth about that except that if you get 4bet, its still almost always right to just get it in.

I dont want to get 4bet against some players when i have AK but its not the end of the world and taking down the pot pre is worth the risk of being a slight underdog against their range. Depth of stacks is also important here, it makes more sense not to 5bet when we have 250bb effective stacks for instance for what should be pretty obvious reasons. Since at 25nl im guessing you are usually at or below 100bb effective stacks its not really ever a huge mistake since your pot odds on a push are usually good enough and the raise does have some FE as well.

As for 4betting, a lot of same things apply except if you have a ton of knowledge on the person and are in position it can be fine to flat, and some good players here do I beleive. This does not mean have 60 hands on someone and them having a 4% 3bet so flat from the button. I rarely flat even IP here, that may be to almost everyone I have enough hands on 3bets wider than that I would consider having wrong odds and no FE on a reraise. I cant speak for 25nl and to be honest there may be some super nits there that it may be fine to slow down since being a super nit there can be very profitable, but I also would strongly assume you are getting called way lighter than what you think. The main thing is how often people 3bet, and unless you know its pretty much never, 4betting is probably the best play.

One last item that is last for a reason is to balance your ranges a bit. Not a concern really at all at 25nl, and overrated in general, but 3b% and such are kept by a lot of people, especially as you climb the ladder, and if you are only 3 and 4 betting KK and AA then it will hurt you down the line as you will get pounded by 3bets and never get any action when you do.

Cheers Guys! Thanks on the HEM answer bob

@Widowmaker, cheers for the advice, I certainly know when your coming from, and the reason I've been leaking is because I think by the time I'm 4bet, I'd take the pot odds as a big factor into my calls, knowing its poss to be shown KK/AA. I do 3bet a lot and pick on loose players and stealers a fair bit, and generally have what I consider a LAG approach in 25NL 6max. And for sure there is no debate on 3betting AK!! If you're interested my HEM pre flop stats are (6400 hands)

VPIP: 26
PFR: 20
3bet%: 7

The thing with 3 & 4 bets and then shoves is that you have to have some evidence that the player is doing this with a wide enough range for you to show a profit.

Generaly speaking at the extreme micro levels, people shove with pretty much anything... then as stakes increase a little people tighten up into nits because they have learned that the profit in these levels is value betting against weak players who bluff too much and shove with anything pretty.

Then as stakes increase 3 , 4 bet and shove ranges open up as now people are exploiting the ABC aproach players have to the game.

The easiest thing for you to do (apart from include 3-bet and 4 bet stats on your HUD) is to use HEM to filter all AK hands which you have played at your current level.

Firstly do you show a profit?

Secondly is there a trend in the stats of the players you showed a profit on compared to those who held AA/KK

Then go from there.

AK is not "just A high." That's a pretty naive thing to say. It's a powerful hand. If you're not winning with it, you're playing it wrong, period.

To OP, yes, a;ways call 3 or 4 bet preflop. Why wouldn't you? You will lose most hands perhaps, but not a lot of chips if your post-flop play is good.

Don't be a pure pot odds calculator in NL. Implied odds are much more important.

i too lose money w/AK allin preflop. but over all i am very profitable with AK. if you making money w/this hand as you should be, dont go trying to plug a leak thats not there. if you look at those times you get called you got to look at all those time you werent called as well. as for the trial period just buy it. IDK if this will work or not. it works for my table scanner. i set the clock back to june so my table scanner still works. but like i said buy it its more than worth it.

Cheers! I will include 4bet in my HUD I think, still a n00b to HEM, I've posted a screen shot of my core stats, I think one of the things as I am quite new to HEM, in these situations, I don't have a broad enough range on my villains to make educated individual decisions, I will post a typical hand history where I have lost with AK and the villains stats in a seperate reply as to not clog this one up even more.

And like me not having enough hands on my opponents, so far, at this level I have only 79 tracked hands with AK

if villain has KK or AA?

Again, without trying to sound confrontational, I'm talking pre flop AK play, I'm not a typical donk that can't lay down his AK overcards postflop, I'm ok with my post flop play, so surely implied odds are irrelevant?

Sorry if I sound arsey I just don't want the thread derailed

Attached Images

AK pf HEM screenshot.jpg (240.2 KB, 20 views)

***** Hand History for Game 12715256937 ***** (Full Tilt)
$25.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, June 09, 03:16:55 ET 2009
Table Bravo (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Seat 1: BeeeBack ( $40.00 USD )
Seat 2: nikajo ( $25.00 USD )
Seat 3: Carava33io ( $25.00 USD )
Seat 4: LumpyAK47 ( $39.66 USD )
Seat 5: DevilHydra ( $45.44 USD )
Seat 6: SPCotter ( $67.62 USD )
SPCotter posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
BeeeBack posts big blind [$0.25 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to SPCotter [ Ac Kc ]
Carava33io raises [$0.75 USD]
LumpyAK47 calls [$0.75 USD]
DevilHydra folds
SPCotter raises [$3.90 USD]
BeeeBack folds
Carava33io raises [$7.25 USD]
LumpyAK47 folds
SPCotter raises [$21.00 USD]
Carava33io calls [$17.00 USD]
SPCotter shows [Ac, Kc ]
Carava33io shows [Ah, Ad ]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3d, 7c, 3h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ks ]
** Dealing River ** [ 3s ]
Carava33io wins $48.45 USD from main pot

See in this instance, I am going over the top, both players have over 100 BB, this is exactly the type of play I am questioning in retrospect

My stats in this session

VPIP: 25.6%
PFR: 22.6%
3bet: 7.8% (these don't really vary too much)

Villain (only 38 hands)

VPIP: 21.1%
PFR: 18.4%
3bet: 0%

***** Hand History for Game 12700237101 ***** (Full Tilt)
$25.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, June 08, 07:25:15 ET 2009
Table Sam (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Seat 1: abbateens ( $25.00 USD )
Seat 2: SPCotter ( $53.30 USD )
Seat 3: Wayo mon velo ( $24.90 USD )
Seat 4: snuffem ( $39.55 USD )
Seat 5: polluxlm ( $45.50 USD )
Seat 6: TinkyTyler ( $30.53 USD )
Wayo mon velo posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
snuffem posts big blind [$0.25 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to SPCotter [ Ah Kc ]
polluxlm raises [$0.85 USD]
TinkyTyler folds
abbateens folds
SPCotter raises [$3.00 USD]
Wayo mon velo folds
snuffem folds
polluxlm raises [$9.14 USD]
SPCotter raises [$50.30 USD]
polluxlm calls [$35.51 USD]
SPCotter shows [Ah, Kc ]
polluxlm shows [Ac, As ]
SPCotter wins $7.80 USD
** Dealing Flop ** [ Kd, Jc, 4d ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4c ]
** Dealing River ** [ Ad ]
polluxlm wins $88.35 USD from main pot

polluxlm stats (328 hands)

VPIP: 19.2%
PFR: 13.9%
3bet: 1.9%

In this case I've played more hands with the villain since (hence bigger range) and know it was a massive slip up. Won't be repeating the same trick against this guy for sure!


***** Hand History for Game 12691382920 ***** (Full Tilt)
$25.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, June 08, 10:06:52 ET 2009
Table Job (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Seat 1: fustars ( $29.60 USD )
Seat 2: SPCotter ( $44.98 USD )
Seat 3: wayner1943 ( $22.26 USD )
Seat 4: El Pato Grande ( $8.21 USD )
Seat 5: StillWating ( $25.87 USD )
Seat 6: ParadisePokerN ( $26.74 USD )
ParadisePokerN posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
fustars posts big blind [$0.25 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to SPCotter [ As Kc ]
SPCotter raises [$0.75 USD]
El Pato Grande calls [$0.75 USD]
ParadisePokerN folds
fustars raises [$3.00 USD]
SPCotter raises [$44.23 USD]
El Pato Grande folds
fustars calls [$26.35 USD]
SPCotter shows [As, Kc ]
fustars shows [Kd, Ks ]
SPCotter wins $15.38 USD
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9h, 6c, 7s ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5h ]
** Dealing River ** [ 2d ]
fustars wins $58.05 USD from main pot

fustars stats (80 hands)

VPIP: 25%
PFR: 15%
3bet: 17.2%

The other hands I've lost big in similar situations against are with 33 and JJ

Main thing to note as well when I'm deepstacked, and villain also, my 4bet shove is needless no? I guess I should be making a more sensible raise and folding to a shove...

I know those are two marathon posts, serious kudos for any kind of feedback!

I think that AK is generally overplayed I mean its just High As so I guess the definative observation would have to be for any "tells" and what kind of player the person is on what the right thing to do is remember sometimes its good to throw away even bullets or cowboys

OK now post your big wins with AK

When you raise, reraised and shove with AK... how many times have you won or induced a fold?

This is my biggest win pre flop where the opponents have folded

***** Hand History for Game 12750805771 ***** (Full Tilt)
$25.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Thursday, June 11, 12:02:25 ET 2009
Table Dough (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Seat 1: JulieKnighted ( $25.00 USD )
Seat 2: Aredza ( $23.15 USD )
Seat 3: catacrocker ( $26.04 USD )
Seat 4: SPCotter ( $24.40 USD )
Seat 5: Yodaddy379 ( $25.94 USD )
Seat 6: snuffem ( $25.00 USD )
SPCotter posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
Yodaddy379 posts big blind [$0.25 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to SPCotter [ Kd Ad ]
snuffem folds
JulieKnighted raises [$0.85 USD]
Aredza calls [$0.85 USD]
catacrocker raises [$3.70 USD]
SPCotter raises [$11.90 USD]
Yodaddy379 folds
JulieKnighted folds
Aredza folds
catacrocker folds
SPCotter wins $8.30 USD
SPCotter wins $9.35 USD from main pot

Catacrocker stats (156 hands):

VPIP: 21.8%
PFR: 19.9%
3bet: 4.7%

HEM tells me they have high squeeze, but it is 1/8, so this hand only

Here catacrocker is obviously I guess squeezing with a half decent hand, there are 18 hands where I've picked up the blinds, and have 6 hands where opponents have folded to a 3bet (so thats 24/79, not including post flop, where I've done ok), but as things stand, and including the big pots I've won that's gone on the flop or further, it is not enough to swing the balance in my favour, one interesting remark, is that I have not won a race with AK (I have lost vs JJ and 33). Having in 79 hands, 3 x AK vs KK or AA is a bit of a raw deal surely?

I have seen 2 all ins where the opponent has AJ or AQ, on both occasions they were short stacked (I hate short stacks in 25NL 6max!)

***** Hand History for Game 12715068624 ***** (Full Tilt)
$25.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, June 09, 03:06:22 ET 2009
Table Skipton (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Seat 1: Mikeyblueeye ( $14.40 USD )
Seat 2: juanrichguy ( $10.00 USD )
Seat 3: dkmdd88 ( $28.66 USD )
Seat 4: SPCotter ( $24.43 USD )
Seat 5: STIKandMUV ( $25.00 USD )
Seat 6: TomSpooniX ( $43.65 USD )
dkmdd88 posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
SPCotter posts big blind [$0.25 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to SPCotter [ Ks Ac ]
STIKandMUV folds
TomSpooniX raises [$0.50 USD]
Mikeyblueeye calls [$0.50 USD]
juanrichguy raises [$2.35 USD]
dkmdd88 folds
SPCotter raises [$24.18 USD]
TomSpooniX folds
Mikeyblueeye folds
juanrichguy calls [$7.65 USD]
SPCotter shows [Ks, Ac ]
juanrichguy shows [Ah, Js ]
SPCotter wins $14.43 USD
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7s, Qd, As ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Tc ]
** Dealing River ** [ 5d ]
SPCotter wins $20.05 USD from main pot

juanrichguy stats (59 hands)

VPIP: 28.8%
PFR: 23.7%
3bet: 22.7%

So against a greedy loose short stack who has their hands constantly in the cookie jar, it seems the right play, and by the time I've re-raised them they're near enough comitted anyway? Certainly vs the 6max nits (polluxlm) I guess I should be more weary making these kind of moves?

Feel like I'm getting somewhere now

Thats pretty much it.

You need some evidence that the player you are reraising with AK or calling an allin preflop with AK could be doing this with a range of hands that he will either fold or where AK has a good chance of being ahead of.

Obviously everyone will shove with AA/KK but you need to know that they will do it with a wider ragnge enough of the time for you to show a profit.

Against SS.. shove, but against deep stacks dont go after nits with 8/6 stats because they really dont do this with much that you beat... (on average in the LR)

Usually with AK preflop I cant get away from it. I don't mind going allin preflop either. As long as somebodys not holding AA or KK I usually catch one of my cards. Its tough for me to get away with it unless I got a good read on somebody. But AK preflop I play it and will continue to.

pre flop i can never fold AK , its in my blood to call and i well always call ...and i win about 50-50 so i well always keep calling

I thought I'd add that from the two lists of wins and losses from AK.

The first two losses were against players with 3-bet stats of under 2%, This means AA - JJ (you are dominated by AA-KK and have to improve to beat (QQ-JJ) Overall you dont have an edge here.

The third guy had 3-bet of 17% you are ahead of his 3 bet range and should expect a 4-bet to fold him.. if / when it dosent you have to ask why and look to his 4bet or shove stats for an answer of if you are ahead of his range.

He flipped over KK... well what else would you expect him to do with KK other than raise and raise, but the question is really.. is his range wide enough that he does this with other hands which I dominate.


The wins on the other hand...

The first is against a 5% range

He is playing 99+ (so you have FE against his small pairs)
He is playing AK AQs AJs so you dominate / or tie his Ax hands.

You still lose to AA KK, but now his range contains lots of hands which you beat.. so you raise.

The second is a 22%.. (hand in the cookie jar!!) You just beat his range here, so you raise.

In both cases, if they reraised, you then need to look at their 5 bet / shove stats.. are you ahead of it or do they only do this with AA/KK?

Generaly speaking, AK is breakeven against a shove at around 5% range, because it wins 33% of the time and the shove after your 4-bet probably gives you correctcalling odds.

Again my limited hands on these guys limits my ability to look in, but it's interesting that fustars flat called a 3bet with QQ, but 3bet KK and called my allin, and KK is his only known 3bet card, so he was clearly getting a lot of FE on that table at that time, but I assume if the villain in the QQ hand (who was holding 10s went to showdown, fustars called cbet, check turn, fustars bets pot in position on river villain calls, J high rag rainbow board) pushed, fustars would possibly call preflop, so vs his range a flat call and see a flop could work against his range, although I doubt I would get paid if my cards hit, maybe worth folding altogether? He wasn't looking to raise the villain post flop and was weary of KK/AA, possibly trip Jacks?

Likewise juanrichguy's known 3bet call 4bet is AJ only for the once occasion, but I think it's pretty obvious he'll happily get the chips in pre flop at least AJ, JJ+, possibly 10s, 9s too having such a high 3bet%.

Cheers for the advice, couldn't reply sooner I have a 7 post a day restriction!