Fourbetting AK preflop.

#1 15th January 2010, 11:13 AM

Versus regs at smallstakes/midstakes - are you fourbetting AK for value or as a bluff? Assume 100-130bb effective stacks, cash games.

#2 15th January 2010, 11:19 AM

Also, illegal poll as it does not offer cake and bastard as options.

#3 15th January 2010, 11:36 AM

I'm actually looking to avoid deeper discussion on the topic at the moment because I want to give people a chance to expose some flaws in their thinking about the game. Chances are that if they feel they can just read the answer, they won't actually challenge the way they think about a very common big-pot scenario. I'm happy to have an in-depth discussion after the question has been up for awhile.

#4 15th January 2010, 12:29 PM

I would not be 4betting AK >100BBs for value ever I dont think and I can really see myself doing it as a bluff either. but if I had to choose one it would be as a bluff.

#5 15th January 2010, 1:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F Paulsson

I'll return with some thoughts on this later, but if you (not belgo, the rest of you) think that the question has now been completely answered, then ask yourself if you feel that you're completely comfortable with the difference between his answer and "bluffing."

Sorry for the fast answer... It's a really good question, actually. You're rarely getting called by worse, you're mostly folding hands that you beat, and yet it's super standard and +EV to 4bet AK vs. a reg 100bb deep.

#6 15th January 2010, 1:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopDonk

I would not be 4betting AK >100BBs for value ever I dont think and I can really see myself doing it as a bluff either. but if I had to choose one it would be as a bluff.

So what do you do with AK in this spot? Fold it, flat call?

#7 15th January 2010, 1:20 PM

I edited your first post, Belgo. Let me know if you want me to change it back.

#8 15th January 2010, 1:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F Paulsson

I edited your first post, Belgo. Let me know if you want me to change it back.

No, it's fine. It was kind of a thread killer. And anyway your question is more interesting than my answer to it.

#9 15th January 2010, 1:51 PM

Its depends on the villain(ie some villains have a huge 3bet range and call fairly wide so we basicly doing it for value against them but other have a decent 3bet but only a tiny calling range so where making our money when they fold).
Honestly cant we just do it for both?(i realize thats a dumb statment) but if we 4bet we could fold out small pairs where fliping against but MAYBE indice a jam from stuff like AQ.

Meh im rambling so im just gonna say bastard.

#10 15th January 2010, 2:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BelgoSuisse

So what do you do with AK in this spot? Fold it, flat call?

I probably should not of answered as I play only MTTs so I very rarely if ever am 100BBs+ deep but I guess I would flat 3bet alot of the time and the more I think about it Vs reg I guess I could 4bet against an aggresive reg.

You are probably right tho alot of the time we are only getting called by worse and folding out hands that we beat

#11 15th January 2010, 4:19 PM

I would say both. Obviously unlike pocket pair you are not guaranteed anything so it would perhaps be a semi-bluff. But, like others have said, AK dominates so many hands that it really is for value. There are only going to be a couple hands that will have AK dominated, and I think most people would be unable to help themselves reraising all-in with those hands (AA,KK).

#12 15th January 2010, 4:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fulltiltpackers

There are only going to be a couple hands that will have AK dominated, and I think most people would be unable to help themselves reraising all-in with those hands (AA,KK).

Does that mean you plan to 4bet and then fold if villain 5bet shoves?

#13 15th January 2010, 5:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BelgoSuisse

Does that mean you plan to 4bet and then fold if villain 5bet shoves?

Lol please don't say yes.

EDIT: With AK and 100BB stacks I often like to make my 4-bet a shove. People flatting 4-bets tilt me so bad.

#14 15th January 2010, 5:48 PM

If we're 4betting AK preflop isn't there basically always enough dead money in the pot to make it a value shove?

#15 15th January 2010, 5:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVHillbilly

If we're 4betting AK preflop isn't there basically always enough dead money in the pot to make it a value shove?

I agree, we pick up a lot of dead money. Hands that will 3-bet us not on the button are AQ/J KQ 1010-QQ. All these will likely fold to a fourbet (QQ if he's a mong). If he's 3 betting on the button he can be doing it with so many hands it must be profitable?

#16 15th January 2010, 6:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BelgoSuisse

Does that mean you plan to 4bet and then fold if villain 5bet shoves?

If I was reraised allin and I had AK I think I would fold, yes, depending on the player. I would much rather put my money somewhere postflop or preflop with a pocket pair. Of course AK will very rarely be a big underdog, but chances are your going to need to catch something unless the person going allin is a fish.

#17 15th January 2010, 6:59 PM

why not 3bet shove? Most hands that re-raise us preflop will call

#18 15th January 2010, 7:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teebone

why not 3bet shove? Most hands that re-raise us preflop will call

Are you talking tournaments? This is a cash game situation and 3-bet shoving would be pretty bad.

#19 15th January 2010, 7:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fulltiltpackers

If I was reraised allin and I had AK I think I would fold, yes, depending on the player. I would much rather put my money somewhere postflop or preflop with a pocket pair. Of course AK will very rarely be a big underdog, but chances are your going to need to catch something unless the person going allin is a fish.

If you raise 4xBB, get 3bet to 12BB and then 4bet to 30BB your allways geting the right price to call a shove(except maybe if villain 3bets/folds ATC but only 4bets AA.how often do u have that read on some one?) with 100BB stacks.
If your gonna play for stacks isnt decited when u get 5bet shoved on, it should be decited when u get 3bet, then u should either fold or 4bet/call imo.

#20 15th January 2010, 8:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teebone

why not 3bet shove? Most hands that re-raise us preflop will call

In this scenario, we don't have the option to 3-bet; we can only fourbet. If you meant "4bet shove" then I'm not at all sure what games you're playing, because that's decidedly not the case in any games I've played, ever.

#21 15th January 2010, 9:25 PM

Semi-bluff IMO. Still a bluff tho.

#22 15th January 2010, 9:27 PM

if my assement of the origional poll is correct, we are trying to get our whole stack in preflop correct. or getting villan to fold to a 4 bet.

the question is do we 4 bet as a bluff or for value. so arnt we asking do we want a 5 bet, or do we want a fold from villan.( I really dont know how villan could flat a 4 bet)

sorry i play micro stakes 5 bets accur very infrequently.

so my opionion might be skewed but i really want a 5 bet or a 5 bet shove so i have the opertunity to get all my chips in preflop, so i can see all 5 cards. at the stakes i play, I think AK is ahead in this situation often enough to be profitable.

#23 15th January 2010, 9:37 PM

You have to play ak aggessively pre flop because i have seen a load of flops with ak when you completely mis and cannot call a big bet so my strategy for beginners is to either keep the pot small to minimise loses or either go all in
adsthepro

#24 15th January 2010, 10:04 PM

Oh, btw, AK is a drawing hand and is an underdog to pocket 2's. (Just wanted to get that out of the way.)

#25 15th January 2010, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by c9h13no3

Oh, btw, AK is a drawing hand and is an underdog to pocket 2's. (Just wanted to get that out of the way.)

Yeah, I don't like to invest too much with it preflop, so I can get away cheaper when I miss.

#26 15th January 2010, 10:20 PM

To bet something for value you wouldnt you need a made hand? The only hand(s) you can bet for value preflop would be a PP. What value are you getting out of A-K preflop if post flop you have nothing but two high cards.

#27 15th January 2010, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVHillbilly

Yeah, I don't like to invest too much with it preflop, so I can get away cheaper when I miss.

+ if u just call and get into a 6way pot with AK no one is gonna put u on it and u can stack the other guys that have A2 and A7 when the flop comes A94...

#28 15th January 2010, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teebone

To bet something for value you wouldnt you need a made hand? The only hand(s) you can bet for value preflop would be a PP. What value are you getting out of A-K preflop if post flop you have nothing but two high cards.

Ya I know rite? Cuz when they call with AQ we both have ace high! Lol!

Seriously now FP, did you really think you could have a legit discussion about AK on this board?

#29 15th January 2010, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teebone

To bet something for value you wouldnt you need a made hand? The only hand(s) you can bet for value preflop would be a PP. What value are you getting out of A-K preflop if post flop you have nothing but two high cards.

A value bet= bet u make because u belive you are ahead of villains range and expect him to call with worse.
How does that not apply to AK prf? Isnt Ax and broadways and SC calling?

Also AK likes low SPR because that justifys stacking postflop with one pair hands(like your most often just gonna make with AK) and you not geting the SPR down by calling or limping prf.

#30 15th January 2010, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by c9h13no3

Seriously now FP, did you really think you could have a legit discussion about AK on this board?

FP was hoping someone would come up with the answer I gave at #2, but he then deleted it because giving it away too early was going to kill the discussion.

In his ebook "Easy Game, vol 1", belugawhale (Andrew Seidman) lists the 3 good reasons to bet. First one is for value when you expect to get called by worse. Second one is as a bluff, when you expect to fold better hands. Neither really apply here. And third one is maliciously not listed in FP's poll, which is unfortunate since it's the main reason why we 4bet AK preflop against a reg 100bb deep.

#31 16th January 2010, 3:16 AM

4betting AK is basically never ahead of a calling/raising range which makes it hard to say it's for value, as we're better off if they fold. At best it's a flip and at worst it's about 40% (against their range). In that sense it's a bluff that balances our 4bet range which lets us get some more value on our AA/KK/QQ 4bet shoves.
By the time we've gotten to the 4th bet there's enough money in the pot that 40% or better is good enough that we just want the money in so that we can see 5 cards, plus we get some fold equity.

#32 16th January 2010, 3:40 AM

I picked bluff.

What are we hoping our opponent has, AQ?

But, I would prefer "it depends". Against a maniac, tilting, or really bad opponent it could be a value bet. Against a TAG pre-flop player it could be a bluff.

Against a player who is good enough to lay down JJ-QQ it could be a value-bluff?

#33 16th January 2010, 3:50 AM

AK is a drawing hand. We raise pre-flop,so we can value bet postflop when we hit... Preflop 3bet or 4bet with AK is a pure bluff !

#34 16th January 2010, 5:36 AM

4bet bluff to even out our range is what makes most sense. Like mentioned above, really what hands are we taking to value town?

I have so much trouble with AK that i tend to just flat call 3bets and evaluate the flop. I hardly 4bet it unless opponent is quiet lose and has a tendency to 4bet often out of agro rather than because he has AA/KK

#35 16th January 2010, 8:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sindri_93

+ if u just call and get into a 6way pot with AK no one is gonna put u on it and u can stack the other guys that have A2 and A7 when the flop comes A94...

Or yourself get stacked when the guy has A5 and the flop comes A95.

: 4betting AK. Value or bluff?
for value		44.44%
it's a bluff		55.56%
Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll

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