Folding as a Weapon

#1 31st January 2009, 11:14 AM

I've heard of this strategy a few times. What is it and how is it used? Is it part of a metagame strategy?

#2 31st January 2009, 11:26 AM

Sometimes in heads up if my opponent seems to be tight I try to fold to evry of his bets. In this way he loosens a bit and then you can get half of his stack while he tries to bluuf at you. I need to improve this technique a lot though.

#3 2nd February 2009, 8:39 PM

I agree it can be used as a weapon. I've adapted this strategy a bit. Say I'm in seat 6, on a 9 seat table, UTG, whom I know is a light raiser (and is also simply annoying me) raises to 450 on a 50-100 blind. It is folded to seat 5, who is fairly solid, but likes to be creative with some marginal hands (67s, 10 j os) calls and now it is up to me with A 7diamonds. Not a great hand per-se, but alot of value if I hit, and even better if I don't. (More on that in a moment). The rest of the table folds and the flop brings 7h, Kd, Qh. I have missed the flop, aside from the 7's, and I know I am not going to continue in the hand. BUT, I also want to see a big pot between UTG and Seat 5. UTG bets 600 into the pot. A small bet, and giving me and Seat 5 tremendous odds if we were on a draw. Seat 5 calls. Now I have to deside if I am willing to sacrifice a further 600 of my stack.

Of course this is an obvious laydown. But I feel if I do lay it down, theere is a good chance the pot will be too small to disrupt the balance of the table and UTG will continue his obnoxious play. So I sometimes deside to make the call call. This accomplishes 2 things. One, it inflates the pot therefore making any bets from my opponents that much bigger if they want to take the pot down. Secondly, It assures that there is 'blood in the water' to fight over and increases the chance of a push/call situation by either of the other players. End result: either UTG wins a masive pot and cripples/busts seat 5, andI move up one spot, or Seat 5 does the same to UTG, therefore making UTG easier to pick off.

Ok, so the example is kinda hard to follow, so I hope you at least get the gist of it. Point is, entering a hand with the plan to fold it without showdown in order to move up the ladder or upset the rythim of the table (best used when the table gets into that "fold, fold, raise, fold, fold" mose before the bubble). Though i must point out that this is only adviseable when you have a healthy stack compared to the blinds, and you are pretty sure, based on your reads of your opponents, that by leaving your dead money in the pot, they will fight to the death for it.

Try it out, let me know what you think. It takes some practice, but it is usefull in certain stalemate situations.

#4 2nd February 2009, 8:55 PM

I have tried to use this to a sense and it can backfire. If you fold a bunch and wait for him to bluff, then I feel you are just waiting to get lucky by playing the cards and not the player. If you wait for a monster, more often than not you find yourself up against a semi-decent hand half the time and junk half. I know coinflips are part of the game, but working on opening up a bigger hand range heads up seems more important than folding and hoping for a monster against his bluff.

#5 2nd February 2009, 9:18 PM

In my opinion folding is most of my game. It is paramount in SnG games to get in-the-money. In tournement games with a few thousand seats I will fold argumentative hands on the front end like: AT and AJ with wild bettors and put small pairs in there too unless they let me in cheap. If the game lets me go on middle position at low cost - okay otherwise I'm outta there until I near the bubble then I'm getting looser. I've been participating in more payouts since i've become a folder. I highly recommend it based on my experience - for what that's worth. I haven't played in ring games so don't know about them.

#6 2nd February 2009, 9:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perry

In my opinion folding is most of my game. It is paramount in SnG games to get in-the-money. In tournement games with a few thousand seats I will fold argumentative hands on the front end like: AT and AJ with wild bettors and put small pairs in there too unless they let me in cheap. If the game lets me go on middle position at low cost - okay otherwise I'm outta there until I near the bubble then I'm getting looser. I've been participating in more payouts since i've become a folder. I highly recommend it based on my experience - for what that's worth. I haven't played in ring games so don't know about them.

Folding = Patience, in many cases. Making your moves in the correct position at the right time is all about patience, imo, and naturally requires 'folding'.

Don't know if it qualifies as 'strategy' - but it's certainly part of a good player's poker arsenal.

#7 2nd February 2009, 10:49 PM

I don't know if it's the original source, but it's quoted from "Zen and the Art of Poker"

It means fold, often. Keep out of trouble with trouble hands.

#8 4th February 2009, 12:07 AM

Thanks for the interesting responses. Hopefully I'll get the Zen book someday -- sounds good.

Although I don't know the actual meaning in the book, I tend to think of it as showing weakness, as in folding a few times when I have marginal hands, in hopes of being able to bluff later on or induce a bigger bluff on my opponent's part. If I give up a few small pots really easily, they will think they can make me fold to any bet, and I can play back during a larger pot and convince them I have a hand when I don't. Seems like some people even make bigger bluffs the weaker their hand.

#9 4th February 2009, 2:18 AM

"Folding as a weapon" makes me think of two things.

First, the phrase "The best offense is a good defense." In poker, assuming a full table with a larger stack to blind ratio, you fold a large majority of your hands, which keeps you around longer so you can learn about your opponents, thereby exploiting their weaknesses when the opportunities present themselves. So folding keeps you around, and being around keeps you in a position to attack.

Second, it builds your image as a tight player. Say in a tournament you only play premium hands. You miss a lot of opportunities for small pots. But later you can use the reputation that all those folds earned you to steal the pots sweetened with large blinds and antes.

Folding chair as a weapon:

#10 8th February 2009, 9:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SavagePenguin

Folding chair as a weapon:

^^^^^

I suppose you could resort to this kind of strategy at the poker table if things were going badly enough -- not recommended, though.

#11 8th February 2009, 10:55 AM

I think it's a good strategy at beginning of tournaments, less close to final table

#12 8th February 2009, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SavagePenguin

Folding chair as a weapon:

This is only a valid strategy at live games, totally useless for online games.

#13 8th February 2009, 8:15 PM

I am a tournament player and it is defiantely my main weapon. Yes I am Hyper Aggressive Donk but thats a different story! The Book Zen and Poker has a great couple chapters on the Art of The Weapon of Folding. Check into it its a great read. I am a big reader and own over 30books on Poker.
See ya on the Felts
DonkeySmash

#14 9th February 2009, 3:55 AM

Folding is one of the best tools one has in the tool box. Thanks to those who do not use it more often.

#15 9th February 2009, 6:26 PM

SUPER TIGHT + SUPER AGGRESIVE = $$$$

#16 10th February 2009, 6:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonkeySmash

I am a tournament player and it is defiantely my main weapon. Yes I am Hyper Aggressive Donk but thats a different story! The Book Zen and Poker has a great couple chapters on the Art of The Weapon of Folding. Check into it its a great read. I am a big reader and own over 30books on Poker.
See ya on the Felts
DonkeySmash

can you give me more information about the book you mentioned?i want to get it.thanks

#17 11th February 2009, 12:16 AM

Well, i dont see folding as that, u just fold weak hands when u play with too many players, and in the heads up, u fold with very weak hands in the long run, and fold weak hands when ur low stack opponent is trying to push you.

#18 12th February 2009, 7:56 AM

I like folding to a conservative player when the blinds are still low, but never in anything more than heads-up.

#19 12th February 2009, 10:02 PM

not a great hand but a good hand...if i,m in say middle position of a table level 7 or so and i hold a-j and a mid to short stack i would elect to limp in or possibly make a raise of 3 blinds or better at this hand..if another player pushes all in,and another calls usually when it comes to me i,ll lay the hand down...i save my chips on what could be a bad call,plus i advance should someone get taken out...poker isnt just a game about playing great hands...its also about learning when to lay down a few...just my take hope it helps

#20 13th February 2009, 3:39 AM

I have tried this before and just have not gotten it to work. I end up folding too many good hands, and I think my opponents catch on. I am sure it could work, but I have not gotten it to work yet, and probably will not attempt it again.

#21 19th February 2009, 4:48 AM

To slay a Jackal sometimes I will fold for many hands in a row. It works best when you can get the whole table to get behind you on it. The pre flop shover will eventually get tired of the minimal results and loosen up. Plus, you lose minimally this way and if you are dealt something decent maybe you can double up with a nut check call.

#22 20th February 2009, 8:17 AM

I am well versed in the ancient art of Origami... Beware my folding techniques or risk a very nasty paper cut!

#23 21st February 2009, 1:07 AM

i use the fold strategy a lot early in the tourneys cause of all the all in action that goes on unless u have a big hand and sometimes even those hands get busted but it has kept me in the tourneys longer .

#24 21st February 2009, 1:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheKAAHK

I agree it can be used as a weapon. I've adapted this strategy a bit. Say I'm in seat 6, on a 9 seat table, UTG, whom I know is a light raiser (and is also simply annoying me) raises to 450 on a 50-100 blind. It is folded to seat 5, who is fairly solid, but likes to be creative with some marginal hands (67s, 10 j os) calls and now it is up to me with A 7diamonds. Not a great hand per-se, but alot of value if I hit, and even better if I don't. (More on that in a moment). The rest of the table folds and the flop brings 7h, Kd, Qh. I have missed the flop, aside from the 7's, and I know I am not going to continue in the hand. BUT, I also want to see a big pot between UTG and Seat 5. UTG bets 600 into the pot. A small bet, and giving me and Seat 5 tremendous odds if we were on a draw. Seat 5 calls. Now I have to deside if I am willing to sacrifice a further 600 of my stack.

Of course this is an obvious laydown. But I feel if I do lay it down, theere is a good chance the pot will be too small to disrupt the balance of the table and UTG will continue his obnoxious play. So I sometimes deside to make the call call. This accomplishes 2 things. One, it inflates the pot therefore making any bets from my opponents that much bigger if they want to take the pot down. Secondly, It assures that there is 'blood in the water' to fight over and increases the chance of a push/call situation by either of the other players. End result: either UTG wins a masive pot and cripples/busts seat 5, andI move up one spot, or Seat 5 does the same to UTG, therefore making UTG easier to pick off.

Ok, so the example is kinda hard to follow, so I hope you at least get the gist of it. Point is, entering a hand with the plan to fold it without showdown in order to move up the ladder or upset the rythim of the table (best used when the table gets into that "fold, fold, raise, fold, fold" mose before the bubble). Though i must point out that this is only adviseable when you have a healthy stack compared to the blinds, and you are pretty sure, based on your reads of your opponents, that by leaving your dead money in the pot, they will fight to the death for it.

Try it out, let me know what you think. It takes some practice, but it is usefull in certain stalemate situations.

thanks for sharing that, i think it can be profitable

ill try it out

#25 22nd February 2009, 6:43 PM

My father told me that folding is winning if you know how to fold properly and when to fold. Some people can make monster but if you fold your monster that's lower than your opponent's monster, then you WON that round although technically, your opponent won the chips. Why? Because you didn't lose any chips and ruined your opponent's opportunity to make huge. I flopped a set with low pocket pair but I folded because few people were raising, bluffing, calling, someone ended up making their flush. technically, you had a monster but won by folding because you dodged the bullet and ruined your opponent's implied odds.

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