Folding Pocket Aces

Yep, there's a time to do it, and I came across that situation last night...

Playing in a satellite tournament...field of about 180, $2.20 buy-in, 34th place gets $1.00, 1-33 get entry into another tournament (with an $11 buy-in). Game is hold'em.

Field is down to 43 players, and I'm in about 15th place in chips...not a huge stack, but comfortable enough that I'll probably finish in the top 33 even if I don't play a hand.

The tournament chip leader is sitting at my table, and he's a maniac...pushing all-in almost every hand (about 75%, actually). I've bet heavy at some smaller stacks, and gotten quite a few folds, which is what's got me into a comfortable position. Chip leader has not only pushed really hard, he's also gotten quite lucky and knocked several opponents out...sometimes with pretty weak starting hands, although he has folded to big bets at times.

So I'm in the fourth seat and pick up aces. Chip leader is UTG and pushes all in. If our seats were reversed, I'd push with the aces, obviously, but since he has me covered and I have plenty of chips, it's an easy fold. It's still hard to believe I folded aces, though.

The key factor in this was the payout structure of the tournament. Since there was essentially a 33-way tie for first if you made the money, and my odds of making at least 33rd if I folded were better than my odds of winning the hand if I called, this was a clear fold. If it had been a standard tournament with a graduated payout, I would have called in a heart beat, of course. Here, I'd only be a 4 to 1 favorite against a random hand. If my stack had been smaller, I'd have called, as well, but given my position it would have been a foolish play.

It doesn't come up often, but sometimes you have to make that fold. I'm curious how many of you have had that kind of situation come up.

Oh, yeah, although it doesn't matter for the discussion...yes, I easily made top 33.

I would have folded AA in a second, but if you think he has been playin weak hands and being a bully. So i might have called, but like u said tourny life moe important i have had to fold AA before after throwing in half my chip stack just to stay in a tourny. (he floppedthe nut flush)

I was playing in a live T and had been short stacked close to the final table. We got a new dealer and I came alive with pushing cards and doubled then tripled up. I was right back in the game. Then I got pp AAs and made what I thought was a good preflop raise and got one caller. The flop came KQx rainbow. I bet pot, still leaving with a good chip stack. He went all and I had put him on AK, AQ or AJ suited preflop. He reraised me and I immediately pushed all in. He had called me preflop with KQo and hit top two pair. WOW talk about a time to stop and think and fold AAs. Needless to say I dinna cash..

No $ to go along with the seat for places 1-33?

Strategically, it doesnt make sense to fold AA if you are expecting a heads up battle. In position, it makes no sense to fold there.

But if the payout is what you say, it doesnt make sense to play anymore at all in your spot.

I'm not so sure this is a spot to fold AA preflop. You have to be able to fold yourself into the seat 80% of the time to make folding the best option (I'm assuming you're 100% to fold into a seat if you double up, which I think is reasonable). 15th place is definitely not a lock if only 33 get seats with 43 left. It depends on how the table is playing. If the other players are getting all-in a lot, then it makes sense to fold. If it's tightened up on the bubble, though, you might not get the seat 80% of the time.

not me couldn't do it . not with that many left . you might as well just sit out and come back later to see if you got ITM . you can't play any hands if you can't plays aces .

I completely understand what you're saying , I've folded good hands on the bubble when I can't afford any chances .
I 've seen many people get the big stack and then sit out to the money but thats the only way I fold aces .

This is a reasonable example of a reason to lay down AA preflop. There is no likelihood of you not making the token, except if you get sucked into a suckout. You were not in a panic mode, and there was absolutely no sane reason to engage in battle there.

Take that same logic and expand a bit on it and you will understand that on occasion there will be other places where the more advantageous move is to lay them down. Notice I did NOT say more +EV.

ICM makes some references to why it might be better to not engage, especially when getting near the money, and having a decent stack.

IMO you did it right bulldog!

only game i would fold AA preflop would be in a satelite and very close itm like you. here i dont think you need to sit out but just relax, dont pay attention to hands or anybody and just keep folding, kind of waste a little time here and there and I think u can make itm really easy.

Sounds totally foreign to fold Aces pre flop to me but hey, Do what you gotta do to get ITM. I would not bring myself to do it, especially to a "Maniac" as you put it who is very likely to have any hand.

1st place or 33rd, it doesn't matter if the prize is the same. Also taking into consideration that the chipleader has been lucky with weak cards, why risk an almost certain ticket ?

Good fold.

I would find it hard to fold AA since he cannot have anything better until the flop comes. He's red meat as far as I,m concerned. Playing to win is the goal and you have to gamble to do that. If AA isn't the best two cards to gamble with I don't know what is. My experience so far tells me that what I cannot control is the flop, if my aces don't have legs then I'm beat. That's the game, I would give up my $2.20 in a heartbeat to bet the aces every time.

Perry, the tournament is a satellite. There is no "winner" and there is no reason to risk your seat even though you no you have the best hand. There is no difference in finishing 33rd or 1st so folding the pocket aces is absolutely the right play. I've done this myself in the exact same tournament and I ended coasting my way into a seat in the tourney.

Riley - have I mis-spent my youth trying to win at poker? I don't don't play satellites -- sounds like Bingo. I'll stick to poker where my goal is to win 1st place. I don't get there that often but it makes me feel good when I do. Must be a character flaw on my part.

Have to agree with you on the fold, I've folded AA, KK, and QQ in similar situations. The only time I think a valid exception can be made is if you are on the MTT Leaderboard and moving up in this tourney will make you serious bucks, in the monthly or weekly rewards. The yearly MTT Leaderboard consists of so many tourneys that I would expect that the points could be be made up at a later tourney.

PokerStars Tournament #68991076, No Limit Hold'em
Super Satellite
Buy-In: $2.00/$0.20
90 players
Total Prize Pool: $180.00
Target Tournament #68990355 Buy-In: $11.00
16 tickets to the target tournament

Tournament started - 2007/12/06 - 00:25:00 (ET)

Dear jaymfc,

You finished the tournament in 17th place.
A $4.00 award has been credited to your Real Money account.




PokerStars Tournament #77445532, No Limit Hold'em
Super Satellite
Buy-In: $2.00/$0.20
156 players
Total Prize Pool: $312.00
Target Tournament #77445092 Buy-In: $11.00
28 tickets to the target tournament

Tournament started - 2008/02/23 - 00:25:00 (ET)

Dear jaymfc,

You finished the tournament in 29th place.
A $4.00 award has been credited to your Real Money account.





PokerStars Tournament #68991072, No Limit Hold'em
Super Satellite
Buy-In: $2.00/$0.20
150 players
Total Prize Pool: $300.00
Target Tournament #68990355 Buy-In: $11.00
27 tickets to the target tournament

Tournament started - 2007/12/05 - 22:25:00 (ET)

Dear jaymfc,

You finished the tournament in 28th place.
A $3.00 award has been credited to your Real Money account.




I still say 43 is to far from the money to fold aces , I folded many good hands thinking I was locked as long as I didn't play any hands only to get these results.

with a large enough stack I understand there is absolutely no reason to play any hand , you have nothing to gain and everything to lose . thus the many big stack sit outs in those games.

but you have to know your math , blinds and antes increasing quick , short stacks stalling , 10 people to the money can be alot and the last 5 spots before the money are hand for hand.

I think many can get in trouble if they miscalculate and start folding good hands to soon . I just know I did anyway

Daniel Negranue was asked in an interveiw...on this site as a matter of fact. Reference strategy articles for more info. Anyway they asked him what if it was the WSOP main event and in the very first hand 5 ppl push all in before you, but you hold aces, do you call or fold? And he answered something to the tune that "if I fold there I'm not playing to win." It obviously depends on the player but I have always felt confident when I enter a tourney. At some point I quit playing for the money and started playing for the win. There are 2 ways to look at your situation:
1: I may get knocked out
2: I can double up and take a chunk out of the chip leader in the process
One way isnt better than the other but I subscribe the the second most of the time. I can however, understand why you lay down aces at that time, as I would rather outplay someone post flop than push preflop and leave 2-3 hours of work up to chance. Just my 2 cents.

Regards,
Daniel

if u are sure that you can cash this with not playing a single hand it is fine to fold .
1: because u say he is lucky u want him to keep his chips and donk a couple of people out.
2: u have more chips than about65% of most players and this should fly u itm

Like you said its not a situation you would see often due to this tournament's structure, but it makes perfect sense. Since the tourney pays the same, survival matters more then place.

Look everytime.

i had to fold pocket aces twice at one cash table cuz a flush and a full house, i was soo pissed. i usually try to slow play them or raise only a lil just to get the call but in a tourney, i just all in and hope some 1 calls me. but i have been beat with them so many times i almost wanna fold them whenever i get them...lol... yea right

It seems that the issue is not about folding AA, but about sitting out to ensure your seat in the next tourney.

I have never folded AA before the flop, but I have never played a game where like 30 places recieve the same prize.

I think even if many places granted access to the next tourney, but the higher places also had a small cash payout, I would play the AA.

I madw the mistake of folding A A to a similar maniac in a sat tourny i was in on sunday there were 10 seats to play for with 25 players left,i was 4th chip leader with 125k, chipleader was at my table with 255k,he pushed all in and surprisingly had 2 callers before me,1 88k and 1 45k i folded mainly because there were too many callers, if no 1 else had called or if i had been next to bet i would have called,my aces would have held and i beleive i would have made final table but i limped out in 13th place.Thats poker i guess..

That was a tougher decision there malice if you called you would either have 0, 74, 203, or 383k chips. I think i might gamble there 25 to ten is awhile away if it isn't turbo. Tough choice, i'd probably time out lol

I see and totally understand your reasoning of folding AA...gasp!! If u were guaranteed to qualify by P&F the rest of the way, sure that great. I do not see any justification for risking any of your chips. I have folded many quality hands under the same circumstances, just not AA in that your situation. There are many tourneys where the prize is the same from finishing 1st to 10th or sometimes 20th. Usually they're satellites.

I dont understand the logic that if he is maniac we should call? It really doesnt matter what cards he has unless he has an A here, which is unlucky since we have 2 of them. The difference between 92o and KK isnt very substantial.

never fold aces preflop. you've got the best hand if he suckouts he sucksout.

Sats are the only place that folding AA makes sense if you are really close to winning your seat. Of course this only makes sense if you are sure you will make it and win the seat.

FOLDING AA IN ANY OTHER SITUATION PRE-FLOP IS THE WRONG THING TO DO. IF YOUR NERVOUS OF BEING DRAWN OUT ON THEN JUST GO ALL IN AND SEE WHO CALLS. LOWER POCKET PAIRS AND MAYBE AK OR AQ. MOST TIMES YOU'LL BE OK CAUSE THE PEOPLE THAT COULD CALL YOU WOULD HAVE TO GET REALLY LUCKY TO BEAT THOSE ROCKETS.

I agree with this fold. The payment structure is equal from 1-33 so theres no need to risk all for 1st place in this situation.

good situational fold

Yep a no-brainer, fold.

If you called his 72o and he caught a set, knocking you out, you would be too embarrassed to post your 'bad beat'... boy that would hurt...

KK vs 92o? I'd say a 5:1 advantage is a pretty substantial difference in this game!

Anyways, I may agree with this fold assuming you had so many chips that you could hit the "sit out" button and still make the money. If you were in a position where you may have had to play other hands to ensure you made the money at some point then you should have instantly snap called this. You're at worst a bit better than 80% favourite to your opponents range here. If someone's willing to hand over their stack then why wouldn't you take it?

So yeah, if you were DEFINITELY not going to have to play any more hands to finish in the money then why bother, but if there was even the slightest doubt in your mind that you'd have to play again then this is an insta call. You're going to be a 5:1 fav roughly to DOUBLE UP here, ensuring you make the money. Don't get that opportunity handed to you on a plate very often

its not KK v 92 (7 to 1) its AA v KK or 92 and kings are only about 3 to 2 better than trash vs aces. I agree with rest of your post just clarifying the point that was made.

IMO its a bad decision to fold AA pre-flop to an all in raise.

although given the payout structure it was probably a wise choice

yup, its the biggest test of will power of all time. I've been in that situation where the field size is 110% of the bubble. I fold AK, KK, never folded AA yet, but I probably would. Once I was a complete moron before i even contemplated satellite strategy... w/o thinking went all in w/ AQs on the bubble of a sat like that, thankfully no one called, but .. wow.. what a bad play.

awesome, another one of these threads