Folding pocket AA pre flop.

Hi guys.

Are you guys all aware of this comment?

I put this in an answer to one of the threads, but the guy does not believe me!!!

Help!!!

I`m at work, so this is from memory. Sklansky says, as an extreme example:-

"If u were at the WSOP final table (I wish) 1st prize was $1.5m, 2nd was $700k, 3rd was $400k, 4th was $150k.
U r in second place with 50000 chips, 3rd and 4th have about 25000 chips each, the chip leader has 200000 chips.
U r delt AA. U r first to act. He suggests u could fold because

1. The chip leader can call and take you out hitting trips, straight, flush, etc.
2. On top of this, because the pot odds are there, one of the short stacks might call, reducing your winning chances.

Effectivley, one or both of the other two guys behind you sit and watch u go out and move up $250k and $550k. U lose $550k.

That is roughly how it goes. Two points I would make

1. Mr Sklansky is a more experienced player than me, so I won`t argue - in the scenario above I agree.
2. Some of us might have seen AA pre flop busted?

I also disagree that this is a negative move. If someone said to me "I`ll guarentee u $100k now, or, on one throw of a dice, if u hit a six I will give u $300k" I would thank him for the $100k and go book a holiday!!!

I would argue than rather than it being negative, it is sensible!!!

Ronaldadio

would you still take the 100k if he offered you 750,000$ if the die came up a 6?

This folding AA preflop is nonsense. You're far greater than 50% to win even with 2 people calling behind you. Besides, if hte big stack calls you, and one of the little stacks call you...you could wind up right where you started, but the big stack will be 150k, rather than 200k, and one of ht elittle stacks wind up with 75k. The best case scenario is that all three of htem call you, and you triple up going into heads up. You're still more than a coin flip against these three opponents...why fold when you are quite possible getting more than 2:1 on your money against more than 50% to win. it could come down to just you and hte big stack...getting you slightly more than 1:1 (blinds+antes) with a 75+% to double up and move even closer to first place...

With the possible exception of every person on the table going all in preflop, It is never right to fold AA preflop in a cash game.

We should give this AA preflop fold crap a rest. The situations in which you fold AA preflop are so rare and come around so seldom that there are more important things to talk about.

You cant even contemplate folding in the scenario you outline.

If the scenario was this :-

Chip Leader : 200,000 chips.
7 players all with about 50,000 chips.
You have 1 chip left, there are no antes, and you have the button.
You are dealt AA, then fold

So, according to the scenario Sklansky gave, you might as well fold your hole cards without looking at them because if you're not going to make a move with Pocket Aces, what hand would you make a move with?

The book is

David Sklansky - Tournament Poker for Advanced players

Part Three: Other topics

Page 134 - Folding Aces

Read it!!!

As I said, I was at work and the scenario I put forward was not exact!!!

WSOP final table was the example

1st = $1.5m, 2nd 1m, 3rd 700k, 4th 500k, 5th 300k

u r in 5th

leader 2m chips, next 3 have 1m in chips, u r a distant 5th.

one of the 1m chips moves in and gets called by the other 2 with 1m chips.

So it is a bit different, but that is the scenario. I would appreciate it in future if when u guys comment you read the question first, which was - "Are any of you guys aware of this comment" (refering to Sklansky saying u can fold pocket A`s)
I didnt say it was right or wrong.

Styrofoam - U did not have to comment - I`m new to poker and to this site, so it is not crap to me.

Welly - I pointed out I was at work and I was quoting from memory. Read the question in future before you comment.

t1riel - If you had read the question, then checked out extract I`m refering to, u will understand!!!

THANK U

Well Ronald, you were not even close to the real scenario in your initial post and you concluded by saying you thought it was the right thing to do

So the responses you recieved were fair.

I said I was at work and I could not remeber what was said exactly. I said I agree that in extreem circumstances it is right to fold AA

The point I was making to Styrofoam was I did put in the caveat - I was asking if people had read the article by Sklansky, not to comment on my scenario.

Welly, again I said it was sensible to take the money up front rather thatn chance a bigger amount on the throw of a dice when the odds were against u.

And as for you, I accepted that my scenario was wrong, that is why I re posted the correct scenario. Again, why did u bother to comment???

I was not intending to be rude in any way shape or form. I was simply saying that the scenarios for folding aces come around so seldom it is really not worth talking about. If i offended you in any way, i appologize.

There are theories behind folding aces, but ultimately, you've got more of an edge than anyone else. and if the odds tell you to call, you should certainly call.


I would take the 750,00$ on a die roll rather than 100k up front.

A little defensive are we? OK so you have the right scenario now, why call out all the people that replied to your original post when, based on that, they gave their opinions. No one said anything about you just the situation.

I, as the thoughtful poster I am merely pointed out your contradictions to show why you got what you got.

Wow there is lots of these AA threads flying around the place at the moment. Honestly the correct by the book play is to play your Aces, play to win ? Right.......

In the end of the day folding is not a totally incorrect concept IF the money thats at stake actually means lots to YOU. However in the long term you cannot expect to be a winning player by passing up +EV situations. A lot of this also comes down to correct bankroll managment, and withir you have some sort of gamble in you. Taking the $100K as cited in the example above is fine tbh, if its way above the stakes you are prepared to play for. But do the math and $1 vs $100K dosnt matter as far as the math goes, its a personal decision based on your own financial situation.

So while folding AA in the above situation may not be correct, as a personal decision it may be the correct one.

As for the insults flying around all over the place, get a grip.

Nice point.

I dunno, I think I'm justified in moving in with pocket Jokers, or suited bridge rule cards perhaps.

(OP, what on Earth made you think we need another "Fold AA preflop?" thread?)

The only scenerio I am aware of where it is right to fold pocket aces preflop involves a tournament where all the "in the money" finishers get the same thing. For instance, you are in a tournament with 5 players left. The top 4 all get tickets to the WSOP main event, 5th place gets nothing. You and one other player have 50,000 chips, 3 other players have 10,000 chips. The other big stack is under the gun and goes all in, all three short stacks fold to you in the BB with pocket aces. The correct play here is to fold. You get nothing extra for accumulating chips, 4th pays the same as first and if you call and lose you are out in 5th with nothing when there are 3 short stacks under increasing pressure and at least one will go out before you even if you don't play another hand. Now if one of the short stacks went all in and you were last to act the call would be easy.

Sorry m8, it was my fault.

Thanks for your input.

Ronaldadio

I appologize m8, my fault, I was having a bad day.

Ronaldadio

I wpuld really like to see any of the top players fold AA PF. I don't think I've ever seen it and if Slansky got them I don't think he would either. The theory is nice on paper but impractical in real life.

How very very true Bubba.

If you are not prepared to go with American Airlines pre-flop, then you are in the wrong game and i suggest you send me a PM as I know my mothers knitting club are on the look out for members.




Just my 2c

No problem, we all have those days, take care.

I'm not going to enter the debate on this, but i would like to say, on the positive side, at least you didn't copy this directly out of the book word for word. Thanks.

If The Only thing that counts is Winning, then folding AA would be a bad thing, ONLY a NON GAMBLER would fold AA Pre-flop, Any true Gambler would never fold AA Pre-flop,, you have to take chances to win a tournament, and if your not willing to do that you will never win a tourny, I wouldnt fold AA if you had a Gun to my Head, so i dont agree with Slanski on this,, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. buck

Only big bucks for No.1 spot!! (the old exponential curve)

When will be the next time you're in the position of being able to win?

GO FOR IT

This is even more compelling a call than if you were in 2nd place. In 5th place, you have nothing to lose. You have a more than evens chance to quadruple up and find yourself in 1st. If you were originally in 2nd place then you could lose a lot of chips and find yourself much worse off. Still a call though.

One thing you have to ask yourself is this, "Should I fold the best starting hand in hold em because the player(s) I'm against might have a 4, 5 suited and suck me out?" If the answer is yes, you really need to reexamine your play.

All I can say is Mr. Slanski is on drugs........You have to ask yourself, would you fold A-A preflop?,.............didn't think so.
HAVE A NICE DAY

he's just talking about the possibility of 2-3 people being knocked out in that hand if you fold and you being guaranteed a bump in the payscale instead of getting knocked out with AA. there might be an argument for the fold equity if your prize money increase and % that they will be knocked out is worth more than your aces being called by like 3-4 people with pushers ahead of you. it's simply a situational argument.

like say you are up against 3 of the worst possible hands for AA (910s/45s/22 for instance) if the probability of 1-2 people being knocked out by a big stack, and you being bumped up in the payscale, is greater than your % to win.. wouldnt it be correct to fold?

That is all I`ve been trying to say all along, but you put it better!!!

To finish all off and me being the person who started the threat, there would have been no way I would have folded AA, but now at least, if the position is right, I might do.

Folding AA makes sense is certain extremely rare situations pre-flop, as you say only when there could be a huge change in your prize money in the immediate future as a result of other players getting knocked out, and even then, it depends on your utility preferences for the money.

But I think some of the players objecting to this are essentially saying, and I can't blame them, "don't waste your time thinking about such situations, they are so rare that it's basically irrelevant", and they are mostly right too.

Generally, all other things equal, with AA pre-flop your objective is simply to maximize the number of chips that go into the pot, and that includes your chips.

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Very funny, Alon!

hilarious

I dont agree with this at all. You WOULD have something to gain by calling and accumulating chips. You would gain the advantage of having a larger chip stack than all the other short stacks and could no longer be knocked out by them in future hands. Winning this hand would all but promise you your spot in the top 4, and give you the chance to knock one of them out yourself (especially given that the big stack might cooperate with you in helping to knock someone else out here). Saying that "there are 3 short stacks under increasing pressure" and that at least one will go out before you is just speculation on your part. They could be thinking the same thing and you would have hurt yourself by not playing. someone else could double up here with a strong hand against the big stack and really hurt your chances. I really think that folding AA here would be detrimental far more than it would be helpful.

I strongly disagree with you. Why put everything on the line with a 20% chance of losing it all when you don't have to? You've got five times the stack of three different players. One of the three is bound to bust out trying to catch up. In this scenario you have nearly 40% of all the chips on the table. At this point your chances of making the final 4 (for a ticket to the WSOP Main Event, I'll remind you) with 5 players left and 3 shortstacks has got to be far greater than 80% (assuming you know what you're doing), so why decrease your chances and let your entire tournament rest on pre-flop aces?

Im sorry. You know what? I misunderstood the situation and thought it was one player with 50k, and you and three others with 10k.