Folding KK preflop to 4bet! FR cash

It was almost unheard of when I used to play a lot a few years ago but recently I have been in a few situations where a tightish villian is 4betting me preflop. I am holding KK but these guys are going over the top and raising all in. Being they are fairly tight players, I really dont think they would shove with many hands that I am a huge favorite. Is this unheard of to fold KK in these spots? I really dont see them shoving with AKs or QQ very often and it seems obvious that they are holding AA, which they show me when I have been calling.

move up to where they don't respect your raises.

What buy in? I cant see folding KK, kinda anywhere.


I saw a video (or read a book), I think it was Phil Gordon folding KK to Phil Helmuth

OK, maybe when I get to that level, but I guess now, PF I am NEVER laying KK down

Post the HH if you can, need more info. Hard to just fold 2nd best starting hand to a pre-flop shove. Maybe on the bubble of a big tourney, just maybe.

Don't fold KK on the bubble.

You have to put into play the situation at hand here. Position, stack sizes,bbs left, BR, tourney life. A good solid player will always put this into thought but the one who is just happy to hold KK will never think twice.

lol love it.

In the game I play in I'm never folding KK pre without a very strong read, and even then I'd probably need to have 150bb+ stack. Last night I got KK in pre against JJ and saw two regs get it in when they BOTH had AQs (that one gave me a stiffy), and another couple of regs with 99 vs AKo. Maybe I just play with degens?

I would say go with your read. If he's a nit and you KNOW he wouldn't 4bet/shove without AA then fold... I guess

FYP

Bad fold in my honest opinion.

What limits are you playing here by the way? Even tight players will shove 4bet shove JJ+ A,Q+ depending on how active the table is.

Also, his decision to 4 bet shove really depends on how you have been perceived, if you have been perceived as loose sort of player, then this is even a worse fold because he can well be shoving 9'9s+, A,J+

Then a Ace spikes surely right?

Even vs a mega nit, I can't see it ever being profitable to fold kings. Someones 4bet shoving range just doesn't consist of Aces, does it really? Maybe this is why I'm so bad at cash and coulden't ever resist calling of with Kings!


Again though, doesn't ones 4bet shoving range (even if the tighest nit in the world) depend on on how our hero is perceived first and if he's a loose degen then shoving any sort of pair is profitable vs him?

Never, ever folding Kings, ever on a the bubble, I'm, calling even wider here too with a worse pair and higher cards.

Bubble abuse is standard and you will find people abuse it shoving any two cards if they have you covered, knowing most of the time you can't call unless you're holding a decent pair.

If you really are folding Kings on the bubble then this is a huge leak.

@Pascal yeah I'm beginning to wonder...

I meant they got it in pre AQs vs AQs against each other; I folded KK pre in this one and got out of their way obv

Of course maniacs (or 'French people' to save Pascal the trouble) shove with all sorts of crap, but I was specifically talking about (presumably competent?) regs in my post.

The truth is that many people play ak aggresive preflop, and go all in, even if they are very tight. This is because they are trying to get you off a low pair, or hoping you shove with aq, and even if they you do shove with 10 10 they still have a coinflip, what people arent expecting is kk preflop, did you fold? did he show?

Dont fold

Thing is, I dont really know these guys but their stats look nitty to me at around 13/6-7 down to 8/5,with a low aggression factor. They have full stacks and its only $10NL so I know there are a lot of donks there but for the last couple times I have called with KK, against this type of player, Ive been up against AA. I think its closer with the 13/7 guys but I dont see a lot of tight players pushing in FR cash games with AK/AQ, QQ or less very often at all.

Ive got to get into the games you are playing, shoving with 99+ and AQ haha What stakes do you play?

I did call a couple others last night with not so nitty stats and my KK was up against an AKo shove and he sucked out. oh well..

I havent been folding them and Ive play solid TAG if they are keeping track. $10NL

move up to where they don't respect your raises

Unless you have a decent amount of hands with them where they have 4 betted and gone to SD and you know its aces then its a terrible, terrible fold.

At the moment I'm playing 50NL 6max on stars. Come on over and dive in, the water's ... choppy!

From what I've read about 6 max strategy, shoving with those types of hands is normal. I didn't think it was the case with tight players in Full ring. I tried 6max but went back to FR since I have a hard time shoving PF with 99+ AQ+

6h you need to play more hands, more post flop play. and more agression. ( i like being a calling station tho, since i know players are over agressive)

I don't think I've ever folded KK preflop before. I even ran into a threeway where both villains had AA. But, you're up against an inferior hand most of the time.

I've folded KK once online. I cold 4-bet a guy from the BB in a 3-way pot and initial raiser insta min 5-bet, he was extremely passive and I mucked pretty fast. He said he had AA.

I've done it twice in live games and was incorrect both times.

I've folded KK post flop to A on flop, but only 2 players did I ever fold KK or QQ to were super nits, when they re-raised pre flop they had AA, their play was predictable so they were easy folds.

Only way I'm ever folding KK pre, barring some extremely rare (as in, I don't recall it ever happening in a real game, only in game theory discussion) soul-read on a min-reraise from a nit that convinces me I'm against AA, is *possibly* on the bubble of a satellite or DoN where I have a lock on 1st prize and there are shorties going out any hand. In that case it's sometimes correct to fold AA as well.

Bubble in a regular tourney though? I'm getting it in preflop all day long.

Again, dont fold

so this is the what 546th time this thread has been made on cc?


/thread

Never dlof pre flop

Sure, but new members don't know that and most can't be bothered to search first.

ohhhh, thats what that bar saying "search" means

search bar? Were? O_o

You certainly can fold KK preflop if you have someone's range at KK+.

That said, games are so aggressive I don't see how you can restrict someone's range so narrowly because very few people are folding QQ/AK pre for 100 BBs.

how about if you are sb co raises button shoves you put him on Qs+ fold there because of rake no? (put them both on Qs+ I mean)

come on now alex,
dont be like FX