Folding KK pre flop at the micros.

It's happened to me a fair few times (as well as most people on here I assume), where I get all my chips in pre-flop after 3,4 and 5 betting with KK, to come up against AA.

As annoying as this is, I accept it, and know that over time KK is probably going to dominate a lot of hands that I come up against. Judging that players at the micros are probably happy to get their chips in pre flop with QQ+, AKs and probably one or two more hands, so I feel that getting it all in pre flop with KK is a good play.

Is this generally accepted? Or is there a time where I should be folding this hand pre flop? (I am talking about just being up against one other player). If not, whenever I am all in and end up against AA, can I be happy with my play?

If your opponent would do the same, it's a spot that doesn't matter.

FYP. Folding K-K pre in the micros? Never. Be happy to get as much in the middle pre-flop as you can. Yes, you will occassionally run into A-A, but that is evened-out by the times you are on the other end of that equation and your A-A stacks someone else's K-K. Your real value here comes from all the other times where you are far, far ahead of villain's range. In my experience many micro players, especially at the lower end of the micros, are more than happy to stack-off pre-flop significantly wider than the range you've assigned them of Q-Q+, A-Ks.

Somebody gets aces in 0.45% hands. You get kings simultaneously in 0.49% of hands. So 6/270725 hand you run Kings into Aces, or once in 45120 hands. Are you really going to worry about something that happens so infrequently?

The small hand range I gave would have been for someone who is quite tight and has a slight idea of what is going on, I know I can expect to be called with far worse hands.

I'm not saying that I think folding KK is ever a good idea, just wanted to see if there was any way of getting around the fact that you run up against AA once in a while.

When it does happen to you, do you feel that you have still done the right thing in getting your money in?

Not sure about your maths with that. If the .45% is correct, then everytime you have KK, you would run into AA .45% of the time, or about every 200 times you get dealt KK.

I play 6 max (may have confused people with my earlier post, when I say against one person, I was referring to just getting one player playing back at me as oppose to having lots of callers.

So in 6 max, whenever you have KK, there will be about a 1 in 40 chance that somebody else at the table has AA. I think that would be right, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm very tempted to level ITT and say that we should fold kk pre sometimes to you know, mix it up but I've been leveling too much and don't want to confuse the newer people.

Don't fold kk pre ever 100bbs deep

Yes, always. You answered this yourself above when you said you will often be looked-up by worse hands. Focus on this, not the small, small percentage of the time when you are behind.

someone gets aces closer to 3.5% of the time in fr i think?, although you will simultaniously still get Ks about .46% of the time so you got about the right result but wierd method :S

Think it would be closer to 4.5% 1-(220/221)^8 but I was just calculating it for HU because it was easier and still got the point across that these situations are 0ev and pointless trying to escape as they happen so infrequently.

You got KK and AA simulataneously nowhere near 0.46% of the time though. no idea where you're getting that from but it's wrong.

Hmm i think its more than .46% if you have Ks and its a given surely the likelyhood of someone else havign aces is just (1/216)x8... or maybe im just forgetting how often you have aces

It's more than that, because if one person doesn't have aces the others have more of a likelihood of having aces.

besides kk vs aa
what about just going against an ace rag and that ace flops? that happen lots more
but kk is still a power hand-you did right

obv but approx my calc is fine i think..

Combination/permutations are the math I am worse at haha, but sadly the one most applicable to poker.

I'm calculating the amount of hands the situation where we run Kings into aces come up, it's a conditional probability so you have to work out the odds for each happening and multiply them together.

You get KK 1/221. Someone else gets AA 6/1225 (6 possible AA combos, 1225 total combos possible) If you are playing full ring it would be 1-(1219/1225)^8 = 0.039. 0.039 *1/221 = 0.000174. Do the recipricol of that and you get 1 in 5738 hands. That's the amount of hands you have to play before you run KK into AA which is why it happens too insiginificant amount of a time to make folding KK +ev.

So say it's a given that the first condition is met as your calculations seem to suggest it's nowhere near 0.46 for full ring (I presume you're not calculating HU). It's just 1-(1219/1225)^8 = 0.038... so it's clsoe to 3.85% of the time given that the first condition (you having KK) is already fulfilled. I'm not quite sure why you're doing (1/216) *8.

(1/216)*8 is just an approximation and gives a very close answer to 3.85%...... so we agree that around 3.8% of the time when we have Ks someone else has aces, perfect.

It has a lot to do with stack size and player type. But in general, you shouldn't be folding KK preflop for 100bb or less hardly ever, in any game, not just the micros.

Basically this, emphasized even more seeing as you're probably playing 10NL or something. The average microstakes player will happily and routinely stack off 100bbs with AK, QQ, possibly even JJ-TT and AQ, and the thing is you only need there to be one of AK/QQ in his stacking range to be profitable seeing as you will doubtless be invested in the pot already by the time it comes to playing for stacks.

Ok, several of these replies have got me to thinking (happens sometimes ). First-off, I'm in the never fold K-K pre-flop in a cash game camp upon which there seems to be general agreement. But several responses here have been along the lines of "never for K-K pre-flop 100bbs deep." The nature of those replies has got me to thinking, is there an effective stack size where you WOULD fold K-K pre-flop? And, if so, why?

Thanks,

Very deep

Depends on opponents range still. If he shove QQ+ at 2000BB deep then it's still a call.

I don't think it's a case of "at micros" I think in general, folding Kings pre espically cash games is a mistake. If anything, I think as the limits get higher, it's more plausible to get kings in pre as people tend to be a lot more creative and you see lots of shoving all sorts not just Aces/Kings for example.

I read something on your blog, where you actually did fold kings pre..

Wish I could dig it up again.

This was along my line of thought. Just thought maybe I was missing something. Seems like (to me) if you can determine that the call is likely +ev, based on opponents range, you make it. 'course it's not realistic that you'll ever be that deep, but philosophically, I agree with you.

You can fold KK to a 4 VPIP/4 PFR in the micors maybe..

Actually no, shove everytime

Very few exceptions, maybe if there's some all-ins ahead of you and their all major nits.. Even then idk, just dont fold Kings man people do this shit with QQ/AK all the time.

Shit just got real

1 in about 29 times you will run in to aces at a 9 seat table so about 1 in 40 for 6 max I guess.

I 3bet KK at 5NL the other day and a 4/4 (100 hands) ubernit paused for an unnaturally long time then shoved. I knew he was going to have AA.....called it anyway though and lost.

Maybe a suspicious shove from a real nit is a situation when you can fold KK.

I suppose to fold KK if you have suspicions of your opponent holding AA is fine, as long as you are right about your suspicions a higher percentage of the time, which in turn may be more of a gamble than just calling in the first place.

If u are gonna fold KK pre flop then u might as well give up poker.

Exactly. If you're not playing K-K pre-flop what are you playing? Might as well start folding A-A pre-flop, face-up, just so the table starts giving you some respect .

Actually there is a time to fold KK, if a solid tight player raises then gets reraised all in by another tight player. If you are sure both of them are tight you should fold. I learned this from Jonathan Little in his set of 50 preflop hands. I find this to be a very marginal move and unless non of the tight players were under any pressure and you are under no pressure you should definitely try to get as much in the middle as possible. I won't fold KK ever, because I don't play at a level were this is applicable and people are generally loose in low stakes.

Answer is really easy.
Never fold KK preflop on micro stakes.
(on higher stakes it might be good move in very few situations, maybe so few you dont need to worry about it).

You might fold it sometimes at tournaments, at bubble. But even there you mostly want to go all-in preflop.

Indeed never fold them 100BB deep,
BUT on the deep-stack tables you should actually fold sometimes (or at least flat pre at some point) I have played a decent amount of hands on these tables (25nl) and I've NEVER seen anyone going all-in with less than KK pre-flop who had at least the max. buyin (250BB),
So indeed, always get it in pre-flop, unless you're playing deep-stacked tables vs regulars, you might want to avoid it there.