Folding Aces?

I recently read an article about folding A's. The article read that if you are deep stacked and not too far out from the prize, to go ahead and fold them( to an allin bet or a majority of your stack) instead of risking them getting cracked. The prize was referring to where everyone gets the same thing. Kind of like some of the freerolls, 99 getting a ticket. So my question is, If I am in a satellite for a tourney package should I use this guys philosophy if say 19 others r getting the same prize and there still need to be 10 more busted out?

Your input is greatly appreciated?

Depends on your stack size and blind acceleration, who the opponents are making the play. There has been a few times when I've clicked the sit out button when I'm far enough ahead to know I'll get a seat but that's fairly rare.

If your stack is close to being wiped out with the call and you know you can wait it out ... yeah fold them. But if the blinds go up fast and your below average, no guts no glory, you have to play them.

Until they changed the format for everyone to wait for all hands to be over before the next hand, it was quite common for players to time out, giving the short stacks time to get busted out.

If you KNOW your guaranteed a win by sitting out, why gamble?

A thread you might enjoy here (http://www.cardschat.com/f51/wsop-hand-history-86149/).

fold all hands preflop especially AA

i don't fold AA X All-in

tough call, you have the best hand so you can knock people out to get to the prize quicker, but still if ur guaranteed the prize by sitting, then i'd take no chances.

if it's a regular freezeout tourney though, folding AA under any circumstances or buyin amount is stupid, short stack or big, regardless of how many people are in the hand

Really? Never ever ever? LOL...here's some fun reading for you.

Folding AA preflop
and
Sort of following on from Ron's 'AA' thread, two scenarios for you

Enjoy.

I ve been in this situation once in a satelite to sunday millions on the bubble and i folded them and got through and another time in the Sunday Millions on the bubble i played them and lost to J 8 and bubbled.
I think i made the correct move in both of these tournaments.

Will fold them for the right situation - a few noted already.

AA preflop is still no more than top pair. Too easily cracked and if it means a major loss of position or chips in a statistical situation (bubble, etc) - they're in the muck.

I folded AA recently. The chip leader was just trying to push the last few people out of the tournament (was a satellite), so I didn't have to necessarily get first place for the prize. I folded AA and came out with my sat. ticket... it's all situational. I would've called anyone with a smaller stack.

hmmm is about of the tournemant of the buy in..are some people left to win about 100 dollar or nothing i would think of folding the aces preflop,but if it is just about 1 or 2 euro i call ever..because at the low tournaments just the winning is worthless

At one of my tourneys this weekend a guy took a bad beat and lost about 3/4 of his stack, then started pushing every hand. On the 4th hand (in a row) that he pushed, I woke up in the BB with two black Aces, holding about 11K in chips to his 7K.

His KQo was crushed until the board went all diamonds (with one in his hand).

We were about 120 out of the money at that point, and I wound up not cashing. If I had it to do over again, I'm still calling.

Over time, I can expect to win more than 80% of that particular scenario and the potential of doubling up there far exceeds the minimum cash that I missed out on.

If I am in a tournament with a flat payout, and I don't need to win any more hands to "win", then I'll fold. For any other tournament I'm *always* playing for first, and I believe that requires playing hands like AA that have positive expectation over time.

Absolute insanity!

The topic here doesnt seem to be about getting away from aces. It seems to be about not playing when on the bubble of a tourney. If you are gonna play at all, you are gonna play your aces.

It certainly makes sense to tighten up at certain times in a tourney to reduce the risk of busting needlessly before making the money. But tightening up never includes folding rockets before the flop. Doing that is not a winning play unless it is based upon in game strategy. One example would be if several players have moved all in and you are not yet invested in the pot.

I believe that AA will hold up against 1 random hand around 85% of the time, dropping around 10% for each additional player in the hand. (This stat was based on my own trials (500K trials that is) so it could be contested.) So with 5 players going to the river, AA is in marginal shape. But this situation only really happens in the lamest of online games.

If u feel the need to sit out in order to make the money, give up tournament play and stick to cash games. If you are gonna tighten up on the bubble (which is a bad idea to begin with), play your top 6-15 starting hands (INCLUDING AA)!!!!!!

In any regular tournament I completely agree with your point. I would only fold them in very specific situations in a satellite.

For instance, an 18-player token SNG on Full Tilt pays out 5 tokens and $14 to 6th.

If there are 6 people left, two of them at less than 1K, the rest of us holding 3K or better in chips, and I am in 3rd place, I'm going to sit back and let someone else go out.

In this case, I think that it's +EV to let them fight it out when I can fold to a nearly guaranteed first prize.

With all that being said, if I have position on the shortstack, I'm last to act (or I think there is a very good chance that I can reraise to isolate), and I can get in against them heads-up, then I'm going to play AA.

Here's a real-world example from a hand I just played that applies to this thread:

PLAYER8 is in 3rd place before the hand, and has 1400 chips more than the short-stack. We are 7-handed, one out of the "money" with 6th getting $14 cash, and everyone else getting a $26 token. Blinds are 250 and 500.

I have a solid chip lead, and have been showing my raising hands to the table since I can't get any callers. My last 5 raises have been with AK AK KK AQs and AA, so the table knows that I am coming in with solid cards.

Based on all that, in his position, I'm not racing with AA. He chose to push, and I got lucky when I called.

Full Tilt Poker Game #5684000808: Tier One $8+$0.80 (43262073), Table 1 - 250/500 - No Limit Hold'em - 11:06:17 ET - 2008/03/18
Seat 1: PLAYER1 (2,520)
Seat 2: PLAYER2 (3,585)
Seat 3: PLAYER3 (5,340)
Seat 4: PLAYER4 (3,000)
Seat 6: KenFischer (6,050)
Seat 7: PLAYER7 (2,945)
Seat 8: PLAYER8 (3,560)
PLAYER8 posts the small blind of 250
PLAYER1 posts the big blind of 500
The button is in seat #7
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to KenFischer [Qh Qd]
PLAYER2 folds
PLAYER3 folds
PLAYER4 folds
KenFischer raises to 1,750
PLAYER7 folds
PLAYER8 raises to 3,560, and is all in
PLAYER1 folds
KenFischer calls 1,810
PLAYER8 shows [Ac As]
KenFischer shows [Qh Qd]
*** FLOP *** [7h Qc 6d]
*** TURN *** [7h Qc 6d] J♥
*** RIVER *** [7h Qc 6d Jh] 7♠
PLAYER8 shows two pair, Aces and Sevens
KenFischer shows a full house, Queens full of Sevens
KenFischer wins the pot (7,620) with a full house, Queens full of Sevens
PLAYER8 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 7,620 | Rake 0
Board: [7h Qc 6d Jh 7s]
Seat 1: PLAYER1 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: PLAYER2 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: PLAYER3 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: PLAYER4 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: KenFischer showed [Qh Qd] and won (7,620) with a full house, Queens full of Sevens
Seat 7: PLAYER7 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: PLAYER8 (small blind) showed [Ac As] and lost with two pair, Aces and Sevens

I like getting away from QQ in that situation. Well done.

I think that I made a bad call here against the reraise. I had seen this player push earlier with AK, and used that as justification to call, but after considering my table image and chip lead, I don't think he would have done that to me.

Overall the field was weak, so I wasn't really worried about losing the hand - I was pretty sure that I could outlast enough of them to cash. That and the chip lead gave me the guts to gamble, even though I shouldn't have

Oh misread ur post. I don't think you played bad here. If your opponent had come in for his raise 1st, maybe you could have gotten away. It would have been an immpressive laydown all things considered.

Your justification for calling is no good though. If you could put him on AK, you wouldnt want to race him with QQ. But once u had 1700 in you werent gonna fold there.

Your opponent had position on you for this hand b4 the flop. Since all the money was in b4 the flop, you essentially played the hand out of position.

Had u been in the blinds, you may have been able to fold after he opened for all his chips.

It depends weather you want to make the bubble or want to try and win the tournament.

If you just want to cash then fold them.

Sorry - I feel like I have let this drift away from the original topic.

I originally posted the hand to illustrate a situation where I think my opponent should have folded his AA and let me either win the steal or race against the blinds.

He chose to reraise the chiplead (me) and took a bad beat which cost him a cash. Since it's a satellite, there is no difference between finishing 5th and 1st, so he most likely could have folded to the money since he was in 3rd place before the hand.

If we want to discuss the play of the hand from my end, we should probably move this over to tournament hand analysis